CriticalFumble.net Forums  

Go Back   CriticalFumble.net Forums > CriticalFumble.net Community Forums > Gamers: Ethics & Religion

Gamers: Ethics & Religion Discussion of ethics and religion and what place they have around the gaming table. The point of this forum is to give space to all the ethical stuff that is or is not relevant that gamers insist on talking about anyway. Also much discussion of real-world issues including religion and politics. THIS FORUM IS NOT FOR THE THIN-SKINNED! You have been warned.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 07-13-2011, 10:01 PM
Ischade's Avatar
Ischade Ischade is offline
The unsullied one.
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 8,101
Ischade has a reputation beyond reputeIschade has a reputation beyond reputeIschade has a reputation beyond reputeIschade has a reputation beyond reputeIschade has a reputation beyond reputeIschade has a reputation beyond reputeIschade has a reputation beyond reputeIschade has a reputation beyond reputeIschade has a reputation beyond reputeIschade has a reputation beyond reputeIschade has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaelos View Post
A claim of evidence by Itchy? Never seen that before I wonder what the excuse for never seeing the follow-through on *this* claim will be? Or will we just all be expected to pretend it never happened?
Well in this case it happens to be things that have been done to death here in assorted abortion threads before.
__________________
Quote:
I get up every morning determined to both change the world and have one hell of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning my day difficult.
- E. B. White
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-13-2011, 11:54 PM
Salah_ad_Din's Avatar
Salah_ad_Din Salah_ad_Din is offline
Quixotic Iconoclast
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tyre
Posts: 16,724
Salah_ad_Din has a reputation beyond reputeSalah_ad_Din has a reputation beyond reputeSalah_ad_Din has a reputation beyond reputeSalah_ad_Din has a reputation beyond reputeSalah_ad_Din has a reputation beyond reputeSalah_ad_Din has a reputation beyond reputeSalah_ad_Din has a reputation beyond reputeSalah_ad_Din has a reputation beyond reputeSalah_ad_Din has a reputation beyond reputeSalah_ad_Din has a reputation beyond reputeSalah_ad_Din has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ischade View Post
1. He wants to abolish public education. There's nothing polite to say about that. Not only is it short sighted, stupid, and ill considered, but it leaves private schools as the primary vector for education. It's a really pernicious attempt to "put god back in schools."
I've not seen any comments to that effect, and it wasn't in the Wiki that Janet posted. It did mention that he wants public education to be handled at the State and local level, which is very consistent with his strong opposition to pretty much anything Federal. Have you found some comments of his about abolishing public education?

Quote:
5. He advocates for a system of immigration enforcement that, at worst, violates the basic human rights of the people involved while simultaneously being thoroughly out of touch with reality, and at best it's simply mean spirited racism.
His immigration position is the one that bothers me the most, specifically denying emergency medical care to illegal immigrants. My son broke an arm a while back and the tab was $16,000 because of the complexity of the break. Charity isn't going to cover that. They pave our streets, roof our houses, and pick our tomatoes. The least our society can do is give them basic access to emergency care while we look down our collective noses at them.

I would prefer an open immigration system that allows anyone to come as long as they register.
__________________
"When I was young, I used to admire intelligent people; as I grow older, I admire kind people." -Abraham Heschel

In a world of violence, the cross, that eminently counter-cultural symbol that lies at the heart of the Christian faith, is a scandal. -Miroslav Wolf

Visit my blog!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-14-2011, 12:11 AM
Grendel's Avatar
Grendel Grendel is offline
I bring out my Chuck
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,841
Grendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud of
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salah
I would prefer an open immigration system that allows anyone to come as long as they register.
Exactly. If you want free care or government aid of any kind, then you need to be here legally. I have little sympathy for anyone here illegally. But if you register properly, including finger prints and a photo, then by all means avail yourself of medical care in an emergency if you can't afford it.
__________________
.
.
"Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!" - Daffy Duck
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-14-2011, 12:59 AM
Archaelos's Avatar
Archaelos Archaelos is offline
Ninja Hyena
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The Great Frozen North
Posts: 10,905
Archaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ischade View Post
Well in this case...
*yawn*

Yeah, sure, whatever. If your schtick is offering evidence you can't produce, it's a lame one but at least you're consistent.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-14-2011, 01:34 AM
Grendel's Avatar
Grendel Grendel is offline
I bring out my Chuck
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,841
Grendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud of
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaelos
Yeah, sure, whatever. If your schtick is offering evidence you can't produce, it's a lame one but at least you're consistent.
Hey, if you don't believe Itchy claiming it without evidence (and hey, I've been there too, MANY times), then maybe you'll believe it when Ron Paul says it himself. Just listen to the first 90 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX5lfCFVx4I
__________________
.
.
"Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!" - Daffy Duck
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-14-2011, 01:45 AM
Archaelos's Avatar
Archaelos Archaelos is offline
Ninja Hyena
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The Great Frozen North
Posts: 10,905
Archaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond reputeArchaelos has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
Hey, if you don't believe Itchy claiming it without evidence (and hey, I've been there too, MANY times), then maybe you'll believe it when Ron Paul says it himself. Just listen to the first 90 seconds.
Mmk...didn't doubt that Ron Paul said life begins at conception. My contention for Itchy was to support this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Itchy
He subscribes to the notion that "life begins at conception." Since he passes this off as being a result of his medical practice, and not his faith, (Which makes me doubt his credibility by itself. I have yet to ever encounter a strong pro-life position that wasn't deeply rooted in religious belief.), he's ignoring some relevant medical info that a Dr. ought to know
I'd like to know what relevenat medical info is being ignored that precludes a doctor from believing that life begins at conception. I won't be holding my breath, btw.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-14-2011, 01:54 AM
Origen's Avatar
Origen Origen is offline
Eatin' ain't cheatin'!
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: No sleep till
Posts: 36,275
Origen has a reputation beyond reputeOrigen has a reputation beyond reputeOrigen has a reputation beyond reputeOrigen has a reputation beyond reputeOrigen has a reputation beyond reputeOrigen has a reputation beyond reputeOrigen has a reputation beyond reputeOrigen has a reputation beyond reputeOrigen has a reputation beyond reputeOrigen has a reputation beyond reputeOrigen has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
Hey, if you don't believe Itchy claiming it without evidence (and hey, I've been there too, MANY times), then maybe you'll believe it when Ron Paul says it himself. Just listen to the first 90 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX5lfCFVx4I
Man, that fool!

He's supposed to hem and haw instead of making bold claims for which he can be held accountable, or have those claims scrutinized.

http://christianity.about.com/od/rel...aulfaithss.htm

However, his views on abortion are a little more complex:

http://www.dailypaul.com/157342/ron-...defend-liberty

I think he does, for example, support the morning after pill. (Still tracking that, so I'm open to correction from those who know more about Ron Paul than I do.)
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-14-2011, 02:39 AM
David Argall David Argall is offline
Bona fide Fumbler
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: La Puente, CA
Posts: 7,068
David Argall is an evil overlordDavid Argall is an evil overlordDavid Argall is an evil overlord
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ischade View Post
1. He wants to abolish public education.
Don't I wish. But the evidence before us is merely that he does not want to waste federal funds on such a bondoggle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ischade View Post
Not only is it short sighted, stupid, and ill considered,
Quite the reverse. Government schooling, like most anything government, is an expensive way to get something that may be worthless or worse. Nearly all evidence showing schooling to be beneficial is unable to distinguish between improved ability and identification of the talented. [If we divide a high school between those who go on to college and those who don't, we are also heavily dividing them into smarter/harder working/richer/healtyer/and otherwise more likely to earn more money even if neither group ever sees a college]. Nor are the increases in income that impressive since it happens over 40+ years. [I have several times offered to borrow money from those wanting to claim government makes a profit from education and pay the same rate of interest the student effectively does. Wisely, none of these fans of government education have accepted the offer.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ischade View Post
but it leaves private schools as the primary vector for education. It's a pernicious attempt to "put god back in schools."
Or it may be because he is aware that private schools costs less and produce superior results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ischade View Post
2. He wants to do away with any government funded healthcare.
Excellent. As already noted, government funding means inferior results and high costs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ischade View Post
3. He subscribes to the notion that "life begins at conception." Since he passes this off as being a result of his medical practice, and not his faith, (Which makes me doubt his credibility by itself. I have yet to ever encounter a strong pro-life position that wasn't deeply rooted in religious belief.),
We have this persistent effort to ascribe motives to the candidate. And conception is the only point for start of life that is not merely convenience based. It is quite easy to support this point on non-religious reasoning. [In fact, a number of the so-called scientific ideas are in fact religious ones that were abandoned by the religious when science proved them wrong.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ischade View Post
4. He wants to scrap the federal reserve system. The basis of not just our economy but pretty much every other industrialized economy out there. (Not our system specifically but rather National banks and a fractional reserve system.)
You do know that the Great Depression happened on the federal reserve system's watch, right? And of course our current problems happened despite/because of the FRS. There really isn't any good evidence that the FRS has done much good, except for the special interests who run it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ischade View Post
5. He advocates for a system of immigration enforcement that, at worst, violates the basic human rights of the people involved while simultaneously being thoroughly out of touch with reality, and at best it's simply mean spirited racism.
No question this is a poor policy, but again we have this tendency to name-call instead of show this is poor policy.
__________________
Yours for less government



David Argall
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-14-2011, 05:28 PM
Grendel's Avatar
Grendel Grendel is offline
I bring out my Chuck
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,841
Grendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud of
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Origen View Post
Man, that fool!

He's supposed to hem and haw instead of making bold claims for which he can be held accountable, or have those claims scrutinized.

http://christianity.about.com/od/rel...aulfaithss.htm

However, his views on abortion are a little more complex:

http://www.dailypaul.com/157342/ron-...defend-liberty

I think he does, for example, support the morning after pill. (Still tracking that, so I'm open to correction from those who know more about Ron Paul than I do.)
I love this bit of self-contradiction on his part:

"I have never been one who is comfortable talking about my faith in the political arena. In fact, the pandering that typically occurs in the election season I find to be distasteful. But for those who have asked, I freely confess that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior, and that I seek His guidance in all that I do. I know, as you do, that our freedoms come not from man, but from God. My record of public service reflects my reverence for the Natural Rights with which we have been endowed by a loving Creator."

Speaking about the First Amendment, Ron Paul says, " Similarly, the mythical separation of church and state doctrine has no historical or constitutional basis. Neither the language of the Constitution itself nor the legislative history reveals any mention of such separation. In fact, the authors of the First amendment ... routinely referred to "Almighty God" in their writings, including the Declaration of Independence. It is only in the last 50 years that federal courts have perverted the meaning of the amendment and sought to unlawfully restrict religious expression."

I like Ron Paul. But for him to say he is uncomfortable speaking about his faith in the political arena is kind of silly.

As for his support of the morning after pill, it looks like that may be specific to rape and incest, although another site mentions "very early pregnancy", which suggests a more universal support (or lack of denouncement) for the morning after pill. He opposes abortion in such cases.

The reason Paul has such an odd following is because of his strange conglomeration of positions. He isn't a cookie-cutter right wing guy and that makes many members of the base angry. If nothing else, I applaud Ron Paul for not consistently eating the apples of the tree of Hannity, sipping from the Rush-ing stream, and shrugging off the wit of the sly Fox. He is definitely his own man.
__________________
.
.
"Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!" - Daffy Duck
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-14-2011, 05:32 PM
Grendel's Avatar
Grendel Grendel is offline
I bring out my Chuck
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,841
Grendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud ofGrendel has much to be proud of
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Origen
He's supposed to hem and haw instead of making bold claims for which he can be held accountable
I make bold claims. And I get called on them. And, where possible, I back them up with evidence. Itchy has a long-standing history of making wild claims and then picking up his yo-yo and running home when pressed to provide support. Even the simplest request, such as "Link?" sends him scurrying. If you want to white-knight him, go for it. If you just want to take a slam at me, fine. But at least be on target. Say I'm an egotistical douche. Say I am ridiculously stubborn. But don't compare me to Itchy when it comes to evidence. I've wiped the floor with him in that department.
__________________
.
.
"Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!" - Daffy Duck
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright on all original post text belongs to the poster.