"Battlefield control"

[TinSoldier]

What are the principles that define "battlefield control" in the context of D&D? It's a concept I'm only marginally familiar with.

Note: I've never played PnP D&D 3.5. Or any D&D besides 1st ed. AD&D for that matter.

[Origen]

Battlefield control involves controlling manuevering and movement by enemy forces on the battlemap through the use of feats, spells and combat actions.

An example of this is Buaed (played by hidufel), the dwarven defender in Dr. Mercury's (now) epic WLD campaign. He uses Stand Still ...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill

... with a glaive to control the movement of enemies on the battlemap.

Whenever someone within one of his threatened squares attempts to move past him, he utters his trademark, "Oh no ye don't!" battlecry.

Another example is Puck's use of Forcecage scrolls.

Other examples which haven't seen as much use in this campaign are reach weapons with Improved Trip, and Wall of Stone or Wall of Force or Wall of Iron to stop or slow enemy forces.

[Dr. Mercury]

Another example is Puck's use of Forcecage scrolls.
Which came in handy against a BBEG that was cranking off between four and seven spells a round.

Other examples which haven't seen as much use in this campaign are reach weapons with Improved Trip, and Wall of Stone or Wall of Force or Wall of Iron to stop or slow enemy forces.
DaiOni's character, Andalyn, usually coordinates strategic placement of blade barrier with the movements, or lack thereof, of Buaed.

[StarkDaddy]

Another example is MitM's pikeman in Conan. He has a 20' long pike that threatens on the 15' and 20' mark. He's a master of positioning and puts himself in areas where he can control the flow of movement by the enemy. Meanwhile the face to face melee characters will crowd around him for protection from charging opponents and fend off people who are trying to get to him.

It works well, and is a challenge to bust.

[Starhawk]

OH yes, Stark -- we have a pikeman in our game too. The Conan pike is uber broken, but I love it. 15' and 20' reach in a 360-degree radius... with Combat Reflexes of course.

[TinSoldier]

Okay, so how do they deploy? To the flanks? In the center? Providing LOS so an archer or spellcaster can hit them without being in danger themselves? Providing a flanking threat so a rogue can get a sneak attack?

The answers have been pretty good so far. The main keys are weapons reach/threat range and terrain denial tactics right?

[dirkgentry2006]

I heard of an SCA battle in Arizona back in the 90s when they were using 20 foot long pikes (I believe it was at the Estrella War).
The guy I talked to had to be choppered out to a hospital after taking a head shot from one. They were banned the next year.

From what I heard, it was slightly comical how they used it - it took two/three guys to aim and manuever it. Sort of like setting up a giant pool cue on the shield wall...

[Magnus Bergqvist]

I heard of an SCA battle in Arizona back in the 90s when they were using 20 foot long pikes (I believe it was at the Estrella War).
The guy I talked to had to be choppered out to a hospital after taking a head shot from one. They were banned the next year.

From what I heard, it was slightly comical how they used it - it took two/three guys to aim and manuever it. Sort of like setting up a giant pool cue on the shield wall...

At a gaming-convention they had classes on how to fight using the 4 meter-pikes. That was very interesting, but rather unwieldy. They also talked about the historical useage and so on. We discussed 6-meter pikes but they were simply too unwieldy to bring/use for us. So a 7 meter pike would be something to avoid unless you are a trained professional...

/Magnus

[Wook]

The best SCA fighters qualify as professionals from what I've seen. Average SCA fighters don't seem to rate more than "knows enough to play with the boys." but that's about all I'd give them. Letting 20' pikes onto a battlefield in that environment, made from ratan for extra snap/flex action, sounds like idiocy to me.

[Magnus Bergqvist]

The pikes we used at the convention were definetly not designed to bend. They were of sturdy wood. =^_^=

/Magnus

[StarkDaddy]

That's what she said.

[hidufel]

An example of this is Buaed (played by hidufel), the dwarven defender in Dr. Mercury's (now) epic WLD campaign. He uses Stand Still ...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill

... with a glaive to control the movement of enemies on the battlemap.

Whenever someone within one of his threatened squares attempts to move past him, he utters his trademark, "Oh no ye don't!" battlecry.
Aye, and the class feature i have now, bullwark of defense from Knight, allows me to cause each square i threaten to be treated as difficult terrain for my opponents... which means halved movement and more importantly, no more friggin "ooh im a wussy boy and take a free five foot move and avoid Atttacks of movement!" Any movement in areas i threaten will draw AOO if the leave an area i threaten! Hah! Ye nae be gettin by me, ye wussy boys! Stand and fight like a true warrior! no more ae this namby pamby tiptoing around me!
Another example is Puck's use of Forcecage scrolls.
Aye that was Beautifull laddie, ye saved our hides... 7 disitnitgrations a round fer three rounds wouldna been good... oen of us wea bound tae roll a 1 eventually... or even more then one, as my dice luck was that weekend.



Okay, so how do they deploy? To the flanks? In the center? Providing LOS so an archer or spellcaster can hit them without being in danger themselves? Providing a flanking threat so a rogue can get a sneak attack?

The answers have been pretty good so far. The main keys are weapons reach/threat range and terrain denial tactics right?

I typoically try to get right in the middle and get my effective reach weapon range into play as much as possible. If i have a chance it'll be right down the middle, or if there is an obvious direction of attack, i'll choke one side... assuming i can get there first... often we find buaed going last.


DaiOni's character, Andalyn, usually coordinates strategic placement of blade barrier with the movements, or lack thereof, of Buaed.

which typically has had buæd going through the blade barrier to get at the enemies... though recently our tactics have improved in that regard... i think sessionbefore last we had a good use of this... blade barrier comes in away from baddies. Buæd sets up shop 5 feet away from blade barrier, placing the event horizon of the whirling blades in his ten foot threatend area of the glaive... bad guys, willingly going through balde barriers to get to us, take blade barrier damage, no save. Buæd yells out his trademark "OH NO YE DON'T LADDIE!" and using his stand still feat, stops the enemies cold in their tracks right in the blade barrier forcing em to take Blade barrier damage again next round. Rinse and repeat. sniff... twas a beautifull thing to behold!

[TinSoldier]

Sounds cool, hidufel. Thanks!

So then, is a Bead of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beadofForce) an effective item for a non-spellcaster to use or do they cost too much?

I'm still working on my chain-wielding hound archon (although he's pretty much done). I think the bead of force is a good way to damage and then remove from play (or at least slow down) one threat while maybe taking on another one.

Still don't know what we'll be facing, though. I'm just trying to plan ahead.

[Dr. Mercury]

Battlefield control won a major battle for the PCs today. They went relic-hunting and ended up facing waves of undead, including a dozen epic vampire Monk/Assassins. One seven-round combat gained the participants two levels. They are now 27th or 28th level. I had expected them to grab the relic and run, but they stayed and fought instead.

DaiOni and Origen pwned this battle. DaiOni's epic cleric flew up and down the battlefield exploding all non-epic undead while Puck twice used an intensified time stop to drop an ass-load of force cubes and force walls.

Right now, the group that showed up today is taking part in Epic Accounting: The Spreadsheet Allocation. Blastum called in sick, Cantrip couldn't make it because he has a lot going on IRL, and two players didn't even bother to call and tell me whether they could make it.

So, I NPC'ed Jed and Riell, Det's and Whimsical's characters from the New Year's Weekend Blowout, and decided that Blastum and Cantrip would get at least some of the XP. Anyone who failed to show without calling or e-mailing, didn't get squat.

FYI, the haul from the epic Monk/Assassins amounted to about 85,000,000 gold. Too bad no one else showed up. :D

[Blastum]

Back to this comment and a couple that came after it especially about long Rattan pikes
Originally Posted by dirkgentry2006
I heard of an SCA battle in Arizona back in the 90s when they were using 20 foot long pikes (I believe it was at the Estrella War).
The guy I talked to had to be choppered out to a hospital after taking a head shot from one. They were banned the next year.

From what I heard, it was slightly comical how they used it - it took two/three guys to aim and manuever it. Sort of like setting up a giant pool cue on the shield wall...

I was at an Estrella back in the early 90's (maybe not this one) but the 15-18 foot pikes that were being used at that time were fiberglass (two sections with a solid fiberglass dowel slid into the two sections to pin them together), they were used for a couple of years before most places banned them.

Antir being into pain (IMHO) used them much longer here in WA, ID, OR and BC. I hated them at least to be hit by for three reasons. 1) NO REAL FLEX (rattan flexes, flex is good when you get hit), so they hurt like a mother (first updated requirement was for double diameter and thickness of the thrusting tip so 4 inch thickness and 3 inch diameter min. as I remember which only made them slightly better), 2) They were heavy and unbalanced, especially with the bigger tips so you got hit in bad places more often because the wielder a) didn't practice with them much except at the wars (too late!) and b) wasn't strong enough to hold them on target. We had one fighter who went through three cups in one season from pikes (Ouch!!!), 3) For some reason people like to move while thrusting with these pikes even more than regular rattan ones. One of the biggest pike rules is thou shall not be moving forward at your target while thrusting at them. I was hit by a fiberglass pike by a person running at me while thrusting it, I was thrown back 5-6 feet from the thrust (Fortunately I was hit in my breastplate which was bent all to hell but distributed the load over most of my chest). I had a large bruise for weeks on my chest, and got in a lot of trouble for hunting down the pike man and beating him profusely with the basket hilt of my sword, though mostly for beating my knight and several of his friends to the pike man.

On the subject of battlefield control pikes are very good at keeping peoples heads behind their shields in a shield wall, then your shields hit them in the legs. They suck though if you don't have the protection of a shield wall. Then for a polearm you want a glaive, partisan or Naginata something with a slashing blade and a thrusting tip to allow you to push the shield-wielding fighter away from you then thrust to the head or legs. I used to fight a lot in wars with a big bardice, it was very good for battle field control it was big, ugly and scary I was routinely asked to cover a flank with it and just one newbie shield-man. Many times no one would attack the flank I was covering unless they had 3 to 1 odds. I'm a big guy but I really thought it was the bardice they were all a little worried about. Seven and a half feet long with a three-foot axe blade on one end that was setup for thrusting as well. Here is a picture of me and my bardice and one of some of those ugly pikes. Now I am in the last picture as well in the blue armor in the middle with the Bardice, I am 6’ 10” my pole arm is 7’ 6”, those two pike in the front of the others are at least 15’ (twice as tall as my polearm). Also notice that the pikes have smooth shafts, rattan is not smooth, these are fiberglass. Our max allowed length then was 16’ (fortunately for me they were on my side :)).

Blastum

AKA Sgt. Squire Charles KurtzKlein

[Blastum]

Here are some things that work for sane levels (IE not our epic campain at the HOTG's).

For non-spell casters;
Ranged attackers (bow and xbows) in the back of your group set to pick-off first any flankers, then spell casters, then other ranged weapons, and finally any polearms. I say flankers first because if they flank your fighters your screwed, then wizards and clerics becuse they usually will try to drop whom ever shoots at them first so make sure you stop any flanking before you make your self a target. Other ranged attackers almost at the end because they usually go after the wizards so your ranged attackers will usually not need to engage beacuse as soon as they piss your wizard off s/he will fry them. Last the polearms so your fighters can move forward now that you have neutralized most of your opponents threats. Never fear something always goes wrong with the plan. But that is generally what I shoot for with ranged combatants. At low level make shure all the wizards have light crossbows, so they can still attack when they run out of spells from a distance, because now they are non-spell casters :).

For wizards;
At low levels the wizards best spells for controlling the battle field are sleep (up to 3rd lvl), web (always), stinking cloud, the wall spells, evards black tenticals, and at moderate levels many of the banishing type spells are good to get rid of summoned creatures and demons/devils. If your wizard has the patience (I don't) counter spells are good against other spell casters, the best actual use is to stop clerics from healing. Because if the cleric is healing someone it is likely becuase they are hurting and you really would rather they stay hurting or better yet that they die. At high level try reverse gravity and the hand spells.

For Clerics;
Well one thing at low levels that does not happen much is to use spiritual hammer to hammer on the other spell casters when they try to cast, it does work pretty well at low levels. You just have hold the first attack until casting starts from the targeted creature/character then attack. Cleircs also have some web type spells sometimes (briar web I believe with the right domain) and then there is blade barrier (more med to high level I guess). As Clerics get to the medium levels they can use their turn attempts for enhancing there damage and AC, mix this with some of their combat spells and they can become a tank and block an area so others cannot move through.

Just trying to think of some different things from everyone else.

PS Dr. Merc., Looks like Puck stole some of my ideas for time stop, but I have a couple of things to add that only the Wiz can do :), maybe you will get to see them next time. Too bad I missed today, but I didn't think you all wanted to get my cold...

[TinSoldier]

Cool, Blastum. Thanks for the tips.

Umm, in your pictures I can't pick you out that well. They're a little blurry to me.

Oh, and 6'10"? No wonder they wouldn't take you on with less than 3-1 odds! Bardiche or no bardiche that just screams "huge barbarian" to me :D !

[dirkgentry2006]

Back to this comment and a couple that came after it especially about long Rattan pikes


I was at an Estrella back in the early 90's (maybe not this one) but the 15-18 foot pikes that were being used at that time were fiberglass (two sections with a solid fiberglass dowel slid into the two sections to pin them together), they were used for a couple of years before most places banned them.



I was actually not sure if they were rattan or fiberglass - I don't think I specified in my post. The gist of the story I heard (from a Duke Flaherty - who I think was a former King of Atenveldt) was just that they were a very bad idea.

I'm in the Outlands now. A couple of years ago, I heard about a guy in Colorado Springs who lost a testicle just in regular sword+board fighter practice.

Occasionally, I have to wonder if the guys in Amtgard might have a better idea using their non-wooden swords. (I think they use PVC with foam padding)

[Blastum]

TinSoldier,

Umm, in your pictures I can't pick you out that well. They're a little blurry to me.


Ya, It kind of sucked trying to get the pictures small enough to up-load. In the left pic I am the one just slightly off center to the left in the blue gambeson (everyone in the same plane as I am in the pic is about a head shorter than me). In the pic on the right I am just to the left of the group of pikemen in the center of the frame holding a pole arm (still in Blue gambeson) which I used as a bardice. The blade was not curved as I didn't like what a curved blade did to the thruting potenial, a test blade that was curved slid off of helmets oddly, and people didn't take the blows as often. With the straight section of rattan when you got hit you knew you were hit:dazed052:. The blade is thick because it has one layer of closed cell foam one layer of carpet and rattan clackers (it hit too hard without the padding :) ).

Dirkgentry2006,
I was actually not sure if they were rattan or fiberglass - I don't think I specified in my post. The gist of the story I heard (from a Duke Flaherty - who I think was a former King of Atenveldt) was just that they were a very bad idea.
No it wasn't you that made the comment about them being rattan it was **** who said something about it. I just wanted to point out that the reason they were banned finally was because they were made from fiber glass and did not flex, and so hit way too hard. The reason we didn't use rattan in that length for pikes was because we could not get pieces that were long enough while still being straight and strong enough to use.

[Detritus]

For wizards;
At low levels the wizards best spells for controlling the battle field are sleep (up to 3rd lvl), web (always), stinking cloud, the wall spells, evards black tenticals...
Grease, Color Spray, and Glitterdust are some more good low-level battlefield control spells.

Fear and Confusion can work at mid-levels, too, in a pinch.

Maybe I'll work up a 3rd level battlefield controller sample PC for the TX Greataxe Massacre....

[Brandoch]

My players used the unit of NPC crossbowmen they have to fire down on incoming opponents approaching a tower they were holed up in to control a battlefield.

[Grendel]

OH yes, Stark -- we have a pikeman in our game too. The Conan pike is uber broken, but I love it. 15' and 20' reach in a 360-degree radius... with Combat Reflexes of course.

So stupid. An actual pike is VERY heavy. I've wielded them in English Civil War re-enacting. They are tough to move around, and even tougher to free-wield. In other words, you can use it in line fighting with the ability to move left and right but you could never get a 360 arc of use. Never. And a pike longer than 10 feet would be extremely tough to wield. And absurdly heavy. If you chop down at someone with one of those and miss, it would be SOOOOO easy for an opponent to just step on it and keep you from raising it up again. I would ban such weapons from my game faster than the spiked chain. And if I did decide to allow something so ridiculous for some reason, I would give it only a 90 degree arc of use and any miss on an attack from one would invoke an immediate attack of opportunity from the target of the attack and anyone to the left or right of the attacked square. The AoO would be limited to making a touch attack against the pike to pin the weapon.

[Brandoch]

The whole point of a pike anyway is to use it in a formation, isn't it? My impression is that that is how the Swiss militia and Scottish schiltrons used them.

[Grendel]

Of course they are meant for formation fighting. ALL polearms are meant for formation fighting. And they all suck outside of line formations. But fantasy RPG games routinely allow their use as a free-fighting weapon with little or no restriction.