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Detritus
12-03-2006, 06:39 AM
Curious. (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2480751,00.html)

The question also looks to be far from settled.

The Ancient Egyptians built their great Pyramids by pouring concrete into blocks high on the site rather than hauling up giant stones, according to a new Franco-American study.

The research, by materials scientists from national institutions, adds fuel to a theory that the pharaohs’ craftsmen had enough skill and materials at hand to cast the two-tonne limestone blocks that dress the Cheops and other Pyramids.

Despite mounting support from scientists, Egyptologists have rejected the concrete claim, first made in the late 1970s by Joseph Davidovits, a French chemist.

The stones, say the historians and archeologists, were all carved from nearby quarries, heaved up huge ramps and set in place by armies of workers. Some dissenters say that levers or pulleys were used, even though the wheel had not been invented at that time.

Until recently it was hard for geologists to distinguish between natural limestone and the kind that would have been made by reconstituting liquefied lime.

But according to Professor Gilles Hug, of the French National Aerospace Research Agency (Onera), and Professor Michel Barsoum, of Drexel University in Philadelphia, the covering of the great Pyramids at Giza consists of two types of stone: one from the quarries and one man-made.

“There’s no way around it. The chemistry is well and truly different,” Professor Hug told Science et Vie magazine. Their study is being published this month in the Journal of the American Ceramic Society.

The pair used X-rays, a plasma torch and electron microscopes to compare small fragments from pyramids with stone from the Toura and Maadi quarries.

They found “traces of a rapid chemical reaction which did not allow natural crystalisation . . . The reaction would be inexplicable if the stones were quarried, but perfectly comprehensible if one accepts that they were cast like concrete.”

The pair believe that the concrete method was used only for the stones on the higher levels of the Pyramids. There are some 2.5 million stone blocks on the Cheops Pyramid. The 10-tonne granite blocks at their heart were also natural, they say. The professors agree with the “Davidovits theory” that soft limestone was quarried on the damp south side of the Giza Plateau. This was then dissolved in large, Nile-fed pools until it became a watery slurry.

Lime from fireplace ash and salt were mixed in with it. The water evaporated, leaving a moist, clay-like mixture. This wet “concrete” would have been carried to the site and packed into wooden moulds where it would set hard in a few days. Mr Davidovits and his team at the Geopolymer Institute at Saint-Quentin tested the method recently, producing a large block of concrete limestone in ten days.

New support for their case came from Guy Demortier, a materials scientist at Namur University in Belgium. Originally a sceptic, he told the French magazine that a decade of study had made him a convert: “The three majestic Pyramids of Cheops, Khephren and Mykerinos are well and truly made from concrete stones.”

The concrete theorists also point out differences in density of the pyramid stones, which have a higher mass near the bottom and bubbles near the top, like old-style cement blocks.

Opponents of the theory dispute the scientific evidence. They also say that the diverse shapes of the stones show that moulds were not used. They add that a huge amount of limestone chalk and burnt wood would have been needed to make the concrete, while the Egyptians had the manpower to hoist all the natural stone they wanted.

The concrete theorists say that they will be unable to prove their theory conclusively until the Egyptian authorities give them access to substantial samples.

SurfKojak
12-03-2006, 09:37 AM
It is know from other cultures existing at the same period in time to have used a way of plastering walls so that the end result became a cemented wall.

There are only some issues here that we need to keep in mind:

Time needed for the blocks to dry - it will limit the size of the blocks; or did they used a possible other technique, such as cementing blocks to the correct format?
Did the molding of the blocks happen at ground level, or on the spot where needed?


Something to think on...

regards,

carmachu
12-03-2006, 10:06 AM
The concrete theorists say that they will be unable to prove their theory conclusively until the Egyptian authorities give them access to substantial samples


Which will never happen. It seems, judging from the articles, the eygyptions are willing to dig in their heels and deny the teory of concrete blocks...

SurfKojak
12-03-2006, 10:38 AM
Yes, be sure, they will dug in their heels.

But even if the concrete molding is there, it nevertheless doesn't break down their advanced society they had.

I find it even gives more strength to their knowledge.

regards,

wolf_mage
12-03-2006, 12:19 PM
I don't get why it would be controversial (in the sense of offending people, not the sense of simply being unclear).

However, it's definitely a valid point that making moulds would have required a lot of wood, which the Egyptians might not have had.

But then, who says they couldn't have done both? Quarried stones for the lower levels and used concrete on the upper levels?

IFMU
12-03-2006, 12:29 PM
Fascinating.
Wolfy, the reason is quite simple really. Change of something that was decided as fact many years ago. Re-write all their books to read less work, more brains?

Magnus Bergqvist
12-03-2006, 12:32 PM
It is an interesting theory, but I for one am not convinced. We do know that the romans knew how to make concrete though, so it is possible.

/Magnus

wolf_mage
12-03-2006, 12:34 PM
Fascinating.
Wolfy, the reason is quite simple really. Change of something that was decided as fact many years ago. Re-write all their books to read less work, more brains?
I doubt that. What will they do when someone discovers a new tomb with some pharaoh nobody knew about?

I mean, cynicism is one thing, but again: if I were Egypt I would be just dying to let the world know how smart the ancient Egyptians were (and this concrete thing is impressive, not pejorative...)

I mean, there are theories around that aliens made the pyramids, "because it is impossible that the Egyptians were advanced enough to build them". Here you go, have a nice bowl of evidence. Mm-mm.

IFMU
12-03-2006, 12:38 PM
I agree with that much, to me it would prove they were even more intellegent than originally thought.
I've just noticed sometimes folks have a hard time accepting change on something they've believed to be fact for years.

Had ta' use the good ol' FF dictionary lookup on 'pejorative', new word to me! lol

SurfKojak
12-03-2006, 12:39 PM
I don't get why it would be controversial (in the sense of offending people, not the sense of simply being unclear).

However, it's definitely a valid point that making moulds would have required a lot of wood, which the Egyptians might not have had.

But then, who says they couldn't have done both? Quarried stones for the lower levels and used concrete on the upper levels?

I wonder if wooden moulds would be needed. What if you build the stones instead of 1 filling of the mould, by layering a start piece until it's the size you want.

The start piece could be as big as a brick we know now, but with the layering on it could become any size and weight needed. And it would allow a quicker drying of the stone.

So, I think that it could be like was said:
But then, who says they couldn't have done both? Quarried stones for the lower levels and used concrete on the upper levels?
This for me seems to be a solution that solves a lot of unanswered questions.

Regards,

Hitcher
12-03-2006, 02:27 PM
I think it's more like seeing this beautiful mansion and then finding out they ran out of money so they roofed it over with the cheapest thing they could find.

Haze
12-03-2006, 02:39 PM
It is plausible though, as has been said, the Egyptian authorities are extremely leery of acknowledging anything beyond their 'agreed' line.

carmachu
12-03-2006, 07:50 PM
I doubt that. What will they do when someone discovers a new tomb with some pharaoh nobody knew about?

I mean, cynicism is one thing, but again: if I were Egypt I would be just dying to let the world know how smart the ancient Egyptians were (and this concrete thing is impressive, not pejorative...)

I mean, there are theories around that aliens made the pyramids, "because it is impossible that the Egyptians were advanced enough to build them". Here you go, have a nice bowl of evidence. Mm-mm.

Apples and oranges there. A new pharaoh is something of a celebration, meaning more history to be added.

Acknowleging the fact that instead of hauling big blocks arcoss the desert, they just used the E-Z bake reciepe to whip up blocks doesnt have quite the same luster.

BattleNymph
12-19-2006, 03:42 PM
You know, the egyptians believed in life after death so.......



THREAD NECROMANCY!!!!!!!!!!!

David Argall
12-19-2006, 06:36 PM
This looks to be a compromise determination.

The pyramids were almost entirely carved blocks, but some of the outer surface was a concrete. That would make the concrete portion about 1% of the total structure, which meets most of the objections offered. There would be enough random small rocks to make the mix, and since it was a relatively small amount, it would be that much easier to get the other needed materials.
Given that we have others using concrete as decoration to the building, we can assume the same here. Concrete would make it much easier to put in any decoration or writing desired. And it may have been felt to provide a better color.

Of course, we are dealing with just about 1 study here, which makes it possible we are seeing the results of somebody misplacing a decimal point [which btw is how all the stories about spinach got started, and why Popeye eats the stuff].

Origen
12-19-2006, 06:38 PM
You know, the egyptians believed in life after death so.......



THREAD NECROMANCY!!!!!!!!!!!

Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah!

*Origen shoots the thread in the head repeatedly, but it just won't die!*

SilverDragon
12-19-2006, 06:43 PM
[reads from the Book of Amon-Ra]

Time to put this thread and that third Mummy installment back where they belong!

[sends The Scorpion King & BattleNymph screaming into the underworld]

Pruc
12-20-2006, 08:05 AM
I would be very interested in seeing the actual analysis. Though I agree it is plausible. To my knowledge the egyptians knew how to make plaster and it's not that far a step to cement/concrete.

nermal2097
12-20-2006, 09:07 AM
[reads from the Book of Amon-Ra]

Time to put this thread and that third Mummy installment back where they belong!

[sends The Scorpion King & BattleNymph screaming into the underworld]

I liked the Scorpion King.

Rhakir
12-20-2006, 10:11 AM
Long live undead threads... <g>

Cement, the key ingredient of concrete (a mix of aggregates and cement), requires calcium and silica (and other additives for strength). Calcium can be found in limestone or chalk but was allegedly not readily available in Egypt. But silica was definitely available as sand.

The ingredients must be crushed, which was possible given the assumed technology available at the time. And then the mixture would need to beheated in a kiln (temperatures from 900 degrees F and up are the catalyst to change the chemical properties of the mixture so they work as cement). Calcium carbonate is changed into calcium oxide and CO2 is released. Then at higher temps, the calcium oxide bonds to the silicates to form di- and tricalcium silicates. Then the resultant material is crushed into a fine powder. And of course, water is then added as the final catalyst and the resultant dried and cured material is hardened cement.

This process would require kiln/firing technology and a large supply of fuel to burn. This is being disputed because of a lack of wood, I believe.

Cement would then be mixed with aggregates (rocks and more sand) to form concrete. A concrete block will (typically) have more compression strength than a cement block.

I personally believe it is possible the top blocks of the pyramids could be made of cement/concrete. But I agree that more proof is needed. I do not simply dismiss the subject because of a lack of materials in the immediate vicinity, however...