Evil GM thread. (No players allowed)

[Parzival]

Power corrupts. Absolute power is pretty nifty.

This thread is a place to share mean things you've done to characters and their players.

A few off the top of my head...

Don't dare the goddess of irony to strike you down. Especially if you're on ground consecrated to her. (The belltower was adjecent to the gate.
The character quickly recieved a ringing noise in his ears. The monks of the abbey produced a large spatula as a finishing touch.)

I had a player who was very bashful, and pretty new to the game. So I gave him an uberpowerful magic weapon. There was a catch. The player had to sing to activate it. He wasn't willing to very often, but it was a great trump when the party was in really deep caca. (The other players begging him was always a touching and poignent moment. <sniff> )

I had a player who played a theif. Who snuck everywhere, whether it was appropriate, reasonable, or not. It wasn't long before I had him singing "Mr. Cellophane" every time he wanted to sneak around.

OK, for a *really* mean one, we have to go to the time the members of the party decided to cut a deal with a devil. I gave them ample warning, but they insisted. With a hideously min-maxed cleric of Mystra (constructed using Skills & Powers in 2e. I didn't approve the concept, but we were doing round-robin GM.) leading the charge. It didn't occur to them that even though their souls were expressly not part of the bargain, that the devil would attempt to get them anyway. And that the kewl magic items/abilities they wanted might have some high (and corrupting) costs to use.
The mystra cleric desired above all "the lifespan of an elf". The devil told him that he couldn't directly affect the character without the character selling his soul, but *could* supply a magic item that, used properly, would fill the role of extending the character's lifespan indefinately. The player was estatic. He happily accepted the offer, the curse (not phrased so bluntly, of course) that would always return the item to him, and supplied some of his own blood to link the item to him.
What he got was a sacrificial knife. If he ritually slew and drunk the blood of an elven child, he would not age for a span of time. (The span, of course, would gradually grow shorter and shorter. And he was told this.) Of course, he had a cursed knife, that radiated evil, which he'd accepted of his own volition, and which had been quenched with his own blood. Getting rid of it would have been a *major* undertaking. And of course, if it didn't get life energy from victims, it was more than happy to get it from the character instead.
Of course, he lost his cleric powers until he atoned.
He could have seen the error of his ways, and made a change, received an atonement, and worked to free himself of the burden. Developing an interesting character along the way.
<shrug> But we all know that munchkins don't work like that.
He tried to suicide the character by walking into a random gate in Sigil. We randomly rolled where the gate went. And he landed in the Abyss.
A defrocked cleric with a diabolic item in the realm of demons.
It didn't work out well for him.
He quit the game in disgust.
And there was much rejoicing.
(Oh, the other players who were pursuing a deal with the devil realized I was setting them up for something. And dropped the idea. Although some dropped it a bit more quickly than others. Munchkinboy, oblivious, pressed on through several opportunities to turn back or mitigate his situation.)

[Dr. Mercury]

hidufel has a great story about how he corrupted Argument Man. It's a classic.

My own stories about corrupting Argument Man are as follows. A few years ago, I ran a dungeon that I printed off of an online random dungeon generator. The designer of the dungeon didn't take into account such things as scale--e.g., it placed colossal old dragons in a 10' x 15' room. Since I didn't feel like screwing with the scale of the map, I decided that the dungeon featured several "TARDIS rooms" that were actually dimensional pockets, and that a few rooms featured Hellraiser-style puzzle boxes that tripped and coughed up a pissed-off monster when the party entered.

Argument Man began collecting the puzzle boxes when he discovered they were a much smaller version of the portable hole. Munchkin that he is, he would hoard treasure in them. He had amassed so many that he couldn't find places on his character's body to put them all. I figured this would be ample incentive for him to high-grade and consolidate his treasure.

Did this happen? Oh, no, no, no, no, no. You see, this is Argument Man, who believes that rules are things that apply to other characters, not his.

When he came across a bag of holding, he decided to chuck the puzzle boxes into it. What happens when you place a bag of holding in a portable hole, or vice versa? In the old D&D rules? I told everyone--repeatedly--what these boxes were. I asked Argument Man--three times--if he was sure he wanted to toss the first box into the bag of holding.

KA*BOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMM!!

Argument Man argued--unsuccessfully, I might add--that the explosion shouldn't have resulted because the box wasn't a portable hole, it merely had the same special effect as one. Yeah. What did I say about his paradigmatic commitment?

The party took a massive amount of damage, Argument Man lost 95% of his equipment and loot, and the explosion levelled that section of the dungeon. I ended the session right there on a cliffhanger: A massive elder white dragon peered through a hole in the floor.

___________________________________

Argument Man also lets out-of-character knowledge seep through. For him, there's no such thing as out-of-character knowledge. He's here to roll-play, and silly shit like plot and motivation just get in the way.

One character, a half-minotaur Ranger/Barbarian, ended up with a solar digital watch and a toaster oven. Knowing that neither was useful to the character, he figured he could scam fellow primitive rubes into forking over gobs of cash for the "bracer of the oracle" and a puzzle box. Not a single merchant would touch the items, all of them referring him to the "alchemist" (hidufel's Technocrat/Cleric).

The "alchemist" would have given him a fair price for each item, but hidufel decided to play a prank. He told Argument Man that the toaster oven was the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch: "See this cord here? Just grab the cord, twirl the box above your head, and throw it at the enemy!" Funny thing is, Argument Man's min-maxed character could have thrown the toaster oven and killed a 4th-level fighter.

IIRC, this started the running feud between the two players. Argument Man kept the oven and kept attempting to fleece the locals, up until he saw all the cool items dripping off a column of orcs and kobolds during what was supposed to be a scouting mission.

Now, I don't know about you, but an 8th-level character of mine runs when he sees 300 troops bristling with weapons. Argument Man just sees dollar signs.

He charged headlong into the column. He lasted half a round.

___________________________________

Narratives of my most recent bit of corruption are here (http://forum.criticalfumble.net/showpost.php?p=8681&postcount=40), here (http://forum.criticalfumble.net/showpost.php?p=8714&postcount=43), and here (http://forum.criticalfumble.net/showpost.php?p=9618&postcount=49).

The instance where I tempted a player into having his character sacrifice a cousin and an aunt was priceless. David is another munchkin, always trying to run an over-the-top anime/manga character no matter what genre we're playing. In my previous D&D campaign, his character was a front-line fighter type who would always try to draw aggro as if this were World of Warcrack.

The party consisted of the children of the previous campaign's PC group and cohort. Half of them had divine blood coursing through their veins, and part of the campaign, unbeknownst to them, entailed a quest to awaken that divine blood. David's character Ajax worshipped Ares yet was Chaotic Neutral. Everyone else in the party drifted toward the neutral and/or good alignments.

So, David had Ajax make himself the center of attention during a very nasty fight. Four sorcerers and about a half-dozen archers turned Ajax into Swiss cheese within a round and a half. Ajax made a god call.

Ares answered. In a sidebar conversation, David asked to return to the fight to help his friends. This would have been acceptable, since Ajax died in a worshipful manner. However, he asked to return buffed beyond belief--as if he wasn't already the toughest fighter in the party.

So, Ares made him a deal: Look, kid, you've got divine blood coursing through your veins. I'll awaken that. However, I need you to do something for me, or you die and you're back before me in a week. I need you to sacrifice your aunt and your cousin to me. This is not negotiable.

David accepted the deal. The other players almost threw him off the H3G's balcony. Despite insisting on leaving the CN on his character sheet, Ajax kept registering as evil whenever anyone used an alignment-divining spell or effect near him.

:whacky043: :roll: :whacky043:

[Landis]

Well, my most evil moment to date was simply a single trap that I had set up for the players. It went something like this...

The party enters a long hallway, approximately 70' long and 15' wide. When they enter, a Forcewall springs up at both ends, sealing them in. The floor is tiled, and some of the tiles are trapped and set to fire off a low-end Lightning Bolt for 5d6 damage down the length of the hall.

It doesn't sound too bad yet, does it? Well, the kicker is that when the Forcewall appears, another one drops and allows the create in the next room into the hallway. This creature just happens to be a Shambling Mound under the effects of Greater Invisibility. As you can imagine, this trap tends to be extremely messy. The good news is it's over quickly, as the players either a) find a way to escape, b) die, or c) kill the shambling mound and then disarm each trap. So far only 'a' and 'b' have happened, and I've used this trap with four different groups.

[BlueNinja]

I had two cunning traps related to me last night, both of which involve Kobolds.

The first is a bridge, built so that it will only hold the weight of Small creatures. So the Kobolds launch a few arrows at the PCs, run across the bridge, and then when the PCs attempt to follow, the bridge collapses and they fall 50' into a spiked pit home to a slime or two, and the only way out of the pit is to take the tunnel that leads back outside near the entrance to the kobold lair.

The second is a paper-mache 'boulder' that looks real, but inside is filled with hornet nests. The kobolds roll the boulder at the PCs, who should (hopefully) dodge it with a real sense of accomplishment ... then it hits a wall, breaks, and the PCs are suffering wasp stings while the kobolds again rain down attacks.

My personal evil GM moment was completely unplanned. One player, Jack, was one of those annoying types who despite any pick in character class, skill, or alignment, somehow is always playing the same person. Jack's character decided to temporarily leave the group and go exploring. Jack's character had no combat skills, and ran into 5 bandits. Through the luck of the dice, he managed to survive, despite my best (but fair) attempt to kill him.

[Mouser]

1) Apprentice wizards armed with wands of magic missile. Intelligent 1st level humans with lots of hidey holes. Tucker's Kobolds got nothin on me.

It was a Wizard's castle. Everyone knew that the Wizard had died, and had decided to loot the place (and make sure he hadn't managed to make himself into a lich, which he had... almost.) The apprentices were there to make sure the PCs didn't interfere.

The PC's didn't. They ran for their lives. From a bunch of 1st level nobodies.

2) Steps down... Methane. Torch. *Kaboom* Roll saving throws for items than can be burnt or melted.

One of those lovely traps that has dungeon-delvers scared of their own shadows. It only has to happen once, then they watch their steps.

3) Give each PC a goal or a motivation in secret. They can cooperate, or they can fight. Mostly, it makes them wonder what secret motivation the others have. So far no group has decided to simply tell each other what they want. There have been several TPKs when they all lunged for the thingamabob at the same time, not realizing that they could all get what they wanted if they just cooperated.

Another lesson in paranoia.

4) Diseases. Almost as good as poison for letting everyone know that "script immunity" is something that happens to OTHER people. Particularly good at lower levels, but magical lands have magical diseases with much higher DCs.

Got to escape? Need to infiltrate the evil overlord's castle?

I've got an idea!! Let's go in through the sewers!!

Mix the methane and the diseases and a few wererats, and you've got a potent combination.

[BattleNymph]

For an egyptian game I ran for a short time, each player had a one on one session to start in which they put into situations where they were given a choice. Fortunately each player made the correct choice and were given abilities by the gods they were serving.

And fortunately, each of the players didn't find out until later in the game that the reason they were given that choice is that they were dead. They had been killed in the one on one scenarios.

All hail the undead heroes.

[SD Anderson]

A couple of decades ago I ran a V&V campaign. I had a couple of players who had a bad habit. They interrupted me to guess what it was I was about to describe to them.

I didn't like that, so I [i]encouraged[/i\ them to do it more.

After a few game sessions the whole group joined in and I laid a dungeon style super villain base on them. Maps a plenty but NOTHING planned for it.

I simply drew out the scene on my battle map,started talking a bout what they found and waited for the interruptions.

In times past they got it right once in a while. Not this time. This time they as a group had a 100 percent guess rate, though individuals varied on getting 'what I had prepared for them' right.

Basically Whatever the meanest nastiest suggestion was that they came up with was what was there.

They creamed themselves but it was fair. Had they caught on, and stoppped making suggestions, or worse start making suggestions favorable to them, they'd have 'won' the adventure.

Never under estimate the power of a PC's player to think of something worse than you did.

[StarkDaddy]

The party was in a collapsing cavern, crossing a bridge over a chasm, and they all fell in as the bridge was smashed by boulders. It was bound to happen as it was a plot device.

The mean part is that I had them fall into dramatic unconsciousness during their plummet into a fast flowing, subterranean river, and drop permanently everything in their hands, plus rolled percentile on all their other equipment to see what was similarly washed away.

I think that the most satisfying snatch was the Gunderman's pike - he's all decked out in the pike. Poor MitM didn't get his favorite weapon back for another level.

But to give him props, MitM is an excellent player and didn't gripe at all. He takes everything in stride and rolls with the challenges like a champion. I couldn't ask for a better player.

Stark

[Wook]

My old favorite - a single corked metal vial on a lone plain pedastal in a 10'x10' room. There are no traps, no evil, no curses, and a strong aura of transmutation magic upon the vial.

Identify will tell you: The vial holds water.

Reality: The vial holds approximately 10,000 gallons of water under an amount of pressure appropriate to fit into a 3 ounce metal vial. :sagrin: Because this is a fantasy setting there's no issue of recoil or knockback for the player opening the bottle but there's no real way to put the cork back onto the vial either. It works by, once emptied, being recorked and then haveing "create water" cast upon the vial repeatedly. :sawink2: I haven't been able to use the idea in a long time and this is the 3.5 version I cooked up a while back. Origen, Dok, and Dohvak are all far to paranoid to fall for it. Other groups not so much so.

[Justice]

*sniff* that was beautiful, man.

[Starhawk]

Although I'd be disinclined to let the simple Create Water cantrip put 10,000 gallons of water under pressure.... yeah. Still funny.

[Wook]

There is also the fun of the old 1st/2nd ed water wierd and the substitution of HCl for H2O. :sawink2: Even better was the substitution of magma.

"What do you mean the lava envelopes me?!?!?"

[Wook]

Although I'd be disinclined to let the simple Create Water cantrip put 10,000 gallons of water under pressure.... yeah. Still funny.

Create water is 2 gallons/caster level. 20th level caster therefore creates 40 gallons of water. 10000/40=5000 caster levels of create water that must be cast. It's a slow, slow, process.

[SD Anderson]

My old favorite - a single corked metal vial on a lone plain pedastal in a 10'x10' room. There are no traps, no evil, no curses, and a strong aura of transmutation magic upon the vial.

Identify will tell you: The vial holds water.

Reality: The vial holds approximately 10,000 gallons of water under an amount of pressure appropriate to fit into a 3 ounce metal vial. :sagrin: Because this is a fantasy setting there's no issue of recoil or knockback for the player opening the bottle but there's no real way to put the cork back onto the vial either. It works by, once emptied, being recorked and then haveing "create water" cast upon the vial repeatedly. :sawink2: I haven't been able to use the idea in a long time and this is the 3.5 version I cooked up a while back. Origen, Dok, and Dohvak are all far to paranoid to fall for it. Other groups not so much so.

You ARE aware that water does not compress very much. Even a couple of miles down in the ocean where the pressure exceeds that you give for your trap, the density of water is still 1 g/cc.

To keep this trap from a reality chec complaint from your players, I might suggest the bottle be well protected from revealing magics etc. If the protection is breached they detect brine, not drinking water. The magic is of a teleportatoin/d door sort.

Popping the bottle toop off activates a gate the diameter of the bottle that links some point two or three miles below sea level with the bottle's location. After a given number of rounds the magical charge wears off and the gate closes.

A really clever PC could make a brief rocket out of one of those things, adequate to push a big load across ice, for instance.

[Starhawk]

Create water is 2 gallons/caster level. 20th level caster therefore creates 40 gallons of water. 10000/40=5000 caster levels of create water that must be cast. It's a slow, slow, process.

My opinion is that when a container is full, the excess water slops out -- it doesn't pressurize. Furthermore, if the container starts out closed, you don't have line of effect to the interior. Similar to the reasoning why you can't Create Water inside the lungs of a living creature and kill it (an old 1E abuse in these parts).

[Wook]

Get your science out of my fantasy. In any world where people wield enchaned blades, travel the planes, and generally make use the D&D schtick styles of magic the laws of physics routinely get trumped in spades guys. It's a fundamentally different universe. Conceiving of mechanics in terms of science is one thing, expressing the creative value of your *fantasy* world in terms of mundance sciences is a great big killjoy IMHO.

[TinSoldier]

Yeah ****, but a phial containing 10000 gallons of water used as a rocket would still be pretty cool...

[Starhawk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_rocket

[TinSoldier]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_rocketYeah, I know. OMSI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMSI) has a cool water rocket display.

http://www.omsi.edu/store/exhibitsales/unit.cfm?Title=Water%20Rockets

[David Argall]

Well, I was running a pickup game for some low levels, who were doing fairly well vs some NPCs, and the enemy mage was down to his last spell, a fog spell that had a description of looking like the much higher level CloudKill spell. So I innocently? asked the players if any of the PC had ever seen a cloudkill spell?
At their level, the PCs almost surely had not, but the players had. At the mention of Cloudkill, they proceeded to metagame and immediately annouced their full scale retreat.[unwisely, since a little thinking would have told them this mage could not have been of the level to cast Cloudkill].
I unkindly "locked" the door behind them as the cloud rolled towards them. And as it rolled over their cowering bodies, of course nothing happened, except the enemy mage beat a retreat with the loot.

[SD Anderson]

Get your science out of my fantasy. In any world where people wield enchaned blades, travel the planes, and generally make use the D&D schtick styles of magic the laws of physics routinely get trumped in spades guys. It's a fundamentally different universe. Conceiving of mechanics in terms of science is one thing, expressing the creative value of your *fantasy* world in terms of mundance sciences is a great big killjoy IMHO.


****, welcomde to the world of gaming, where players whose characters are victimized by this trap will stop the game to complain that the trap couldn not work as described.

Then there are the exploitive types. The bottle can contain THAT kind of pressure without exploding? That glass must be worth bukoo gold pieces. Derail story while players seek someone to buy the bottle at the price they think it's worth

NO explanation beats an implasible one any day of the week. Since an explanation was given, the door was opened to how things work.

Personally just calling it a decanter of endless waters and refering the players to it's description works better still.

(this is NOT remotely close to the first time this trap has been expressed in a RPG context...) However, if you're going to go the explanation route, stay plasuible. Not the same as Possible. "Kryptonian acids can burn Superman" is plausible, not matter how much it might give chemists a headache. For that matter I seriously doubt the bottle as I described it above would survive either. That's a gawdoffal lot of pressure even if there's a vent open when the gate activates. But the gate at least explains why more water exits the bottle than the bottle could hold is answered.

[SD Anderson]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_rocket

I used to have one of those back in fifth grade. Cldear plastic pump it up water as reaction mass. Took off and wetted anyone close to underneath it.

[Wook]

****, welcomde to the world of gaming, where players whose characters are victimized by this trap will stop the game to complain that the trap couldn not work as described.

My games are not pedestrian. My players are warned ahead of time understand this. My players are typically better power gamers than me. I'm well aware of the world of game and know which part of it I like to play in and it isn't in the "whiny little bitch" room with players that are going to get bent over a magical trap when they get suckered by it. :sawink2:

Any player that did get bent would be advised that they were in a fantasy world and the that I didn't complain when they broke the laws of phyiscs 3 dozen times on the way in while sodomizing Sir Isacc Newton's inner child with their rod of lordly might. :sagrin: It's a fantasy world. Deal with it.

[Brandoch]

A bit of context: my game is set in a Republic that is very lawful.

A player was playing a bard who had been accused and arrested for helping people suspected of instigating rebellion. He was put aboard a prison barge and was sent down a river to the local capital to be judged. Imprisoned with him was a scrawny ragged thief with a whiney voice who was chained just out of reach. Typical scenes that ensued:

Bard: Psstt...! if we work together we might be able to escape.
Thief: Ohhhh (sniveling) why'd you wake me up? Can't you see I'm not well? Guard! I want to be moved to another hold!
Guard: Both of ya shut up!

or

(Bard is feverishly trying to work on picking the lock on his chains...the thief at that point calls out to the Guard, begging for a blanket because he's cold.)

or

Thief: Guard...(whiney grovelling voice) Guard...!
Guard: What the bloody hell d'you want?
Thief: How long have I been on this barge?
Guard: Same as me!
Thief: Oh...how long is that?
Guard: Too bloody long! Shut up!

It culminated in the Bard waking up one day on their journey and seeing the thief smiling broadly at him.

Bard: Why are you smiling?
Thief: (smiles)
Bard: Why are you smiling???!!!!
Thief: Because they like me better than you. Because I'm just a simple thief...and you're a dissident...

[Chimaera]

****, I think that SD's point about plausibility is a good one... just saying "It's fantasy; suck it up!" isn't sufficient. The players want to be able to be rational agents in the game-world and to be able to figure things out. That means you have to make at least some concession to basic physics (or what passes for such in the group) -- you could pull absolutely anything out of your ass and say "It's fantasy; suck it up!". You have to allow for some form of inferential competence for your players or the game just becomes a random series of 'fuck you's. The really cool traps (not the player-railroading ones; that is, not the plot-device traps) need to be defeasible in some way.

[Mouser]

Joel Rosenberg speculated that if a Wizard were to stuff a huge amount of water into an unbreakable bottle, then cast a stasis spell of some sort on it, that the water might find itself in a semi-stable plasma state.

Of course it would be extremely hot, but as it cooled, it would turn into steam and eventually water.

So, if a PC were to complain about how it was "scientifically impossible," I might say something like, "Oops. You're right. I did the figures wrong. It should be 3000 degrees too. Roll a Reflex Save to halve damage from the water-based plasma fireball."

[Wook]

****, I think that SD's point about plausibility is a good one... just saying "It's fantasy; suck it up!" isn't sufficient. The players want to be able to be rational agents in the game-world and to be able to figure things out. That means you have to make at least some concession to basic physics (or what passes for such in the group) -- you could pull absolutely anything out of your ass and say "It's fantasy; suck it up!". You have to allow for some form of inferential competence for your players or the game just becomes a random series of 'fuck you's. The really cool traps (not the player-railroading ones; that is, not the plot-device traps) need to be defeasible in some way.

Must a player defend his fly spell? What about teleport? Ethereal Jaunt? Extradimensional spaces are an established and accepted part of the genre and the item is very similar to one of the old sacred cow items of D&D, The Decanter of Endless Water, and has a similar effect as the geyser function of that item only instead of being a benevolent item under the party's control it becomes a dangerous trap because of the context that they open it in. (If they open it on some high plain everyone gets wet at pretty much zero risk.) After that it becomes an item in the party's posession. (Remember it's not cursed.) Further the idea of an extradimensional space that expands and contracts isn't even all that much of a "stretch". Look at the "Genesis" spell that creates an expanding demiplane suitable for habitation, the Hewards Handy Haversack that arranges the contents of it's extradimensional space to put the item you want on top, etc...

Seriously. Any player that get's bent over this item needs to go sit in the whiny little bitch room. Complaining that a trap isn't consistent with the laws of physics in a fantasy game is like complaining about traffic on the interstate.

[Chimaera]

Must a player defend his fly spell? What about teleport? Ethereal Jaunt? Extradimensional spaces are an established and accepted part of the genre and the item is very similar to one of the old sacred cow items of D&D, The Decanter of Endless Water, and has a similar effect as the geyser function of that item only instead of being a benevolent item under the party's control it becomes a dangerous trap because of the context that they open it in. (If they open it on some high plain everyone gets wet at pretty much zero risk.) After that it becomes an item in the party's posession. (Remember it's not cursed.) Further the idea of an extradimensional space that expands and contracts isn't even all that much of a "stretch". Look at the "Genesis" spell that creates an expanding demiplane suitable for habitation, the Hewards Handy Haversack that arranges the contents of it's extradimensional space to put the item you want on top, etc...

Seriously. Any player that get's bent over this item needs to go sit in the whiny little bitch room. Complaining that a trap isn't consistent with the laws of physics in a fantasy game is like complaining about traffic on the interstate.

You're trying to have your cake and eat it too... You want high-pressure water without the requisite action/reaction. That's not "I have a magic spell that lets me fly", that's explicitly contradicting baseline intuitions about how the world works and internal consistency; action/reaction is a fundamental part of your game world that works all of the time, which suddenly is irrelevant. You may as well just barbecue your players with arbitrary bolts from the blue at that point; why bother with a trap at all? Traps are cool if people can figure them out -- that means at least a passing nod to people's appreciation of physics. Your trap isn't outsmarting anyone, it's just a pretty description you've applied to hosing your players. Nobody is taking you to task for violating realism, but rather violating plausibility within the context of willing suspension of disbelief.

[Wook]

You're trying to have your cake and eat it too... You want high-pressure water without the requisite action/reaction. That's not "I have a magic spell that lets me fly", that's explicitly contradicting baseline intuitions about how the world works and internal consistency; action/reaction is a fundamental part of your game world that works all of the time, which suddenly is irrelevant. You may as well just barbecue your players with arbitrary bolts from the blue at that point; why bother with a trap at all? Traps are cool if people can figure them out -- that means at least a passing nod to people's appreciation of physics. Your trap isn't outsmarting anyone, it's just a pretty description you've applied to hosing your players. Nobody is taking you to task for violating realism, but rather violating plausibility within the context of willing suspension of disbelief.

Because my flavor text when I present the item doesn't scream THIS IS A TRAP BE CAREFUL! No not at all. The players know that they're in a potentially dangerous situation from the time they enter the room. When I run my games my players know that the kind of reference to realism that you and Mr. Anderson are referencing is optional.

[Chimaera]

Because my flavor text when I present the item doesn't scream THIS IS A TRAP BE CAREFUL! No not at all. The players know that they're in a potentially dangerous situation from the time they enter the room. When I run my games my players know that the kind of reference to realism that you and Mr. Anderson are referencing is optional.

And what markers are there of its 'optionality'? Does this mean that you feel free to arbitrarily dump even basic, basic physics at will, whenever? No magical markers other than "Water" to get from an Identify spell? No magical reinforcement of the vial? No Suspend Inertia spell in evidence? Sorry, dude, it still sounds pretty cheap to me. There has to be some basic, relatively consistent framework for inference and problem-solving, or else you're just soaking your players gratuitously.

[Mouser]

I thought this was a "hey, look how I screwed my PCs over THIS time!!" thread.

People are seeming pretty angry.

[Grendel]

I never really screwed my players over in an evil fashion. I despise that as a player and therefore won't do that as a GM. I strongly agree with Chimaera that the more realistic and lawful the world is (and I mean lawful in terms of things moving and acting according to the laws of physics and science as much as possible) the less problems are created due to arbitrary flouting of reality by the GM.

I've only ever had 2 PCs die in my games. One died because he answered the following question with "yes":

"The 6 orcs all have bows and have noticed you are staying put while the others are moving on. Are you sure you want to fire at them?"

The other died because he destroyed the detente between the party members and the ancient vampire by ignoring the vampire's repeated demand to "leave the cleric behind and be gone". He refused and was ... dealt with.

I did have a player arrested in a short Cthulhu campaign I was running and it would most likely have resulted in long-term incarceration, but we never continued the campaign.

[Mouser]

Gee, Grendel, you are the nicest GM in the whole wide world!!

Everybody jump up and down for Grendel!!

:dance5:

:jump:

[Chimaera]

I thought this was a "hey, look how I screwed my PCs over THIS time!!" thread.

People are seeming pretty angry.

No anger here... I have heard a lot of old DM war-stories about how they 'outsmarted' their players, and it's usually crap -- if the game becomes about an adversarial contest between DM and player, it descends into foolishness. Ultimately, the DM's judgment trumps everything. It's like listening to people bitch about tactical errors in RPGs: give me a break... Outside of some really glaring obvious things, tactics in a game succeed or fail based on whether or not the DM thinks they should work, not whether or not they are actually sound. A lot of people who play RPGs fancy themselves master strategists and military historians with little to support that notion.

[BattleNymph]

You know, I love that there's arguing here about whether or not a tiny flask containing thousands of gallons of water makes sense.


I absolutely LOVE gamers. :iloveyou:

(I miss the kiss smiley)

[Chimaera]

You know, I love that there's arguing here about whether or not a tiny flask containing thousands of gallons of water makes sense.


I absolutely LOVE gamers. :iloveyou:

(I miss the kiss smiley)

It's not the tiny flask full of bazillions of gallons of water that bothers me; it's the selective physics and the smugness (not on ****'s part, BTW, but the general air of DM's feeling clever about squashing players -- it's kind of like Mike Tyson being all proud of winning a fistfight with a paraplegic). In ****'s trap, the rushing water apparently exerts sufficient pressure to make simply re-corking the bottle impossible, but oh no! No water-rockets... That's a little rich for my blood, personally. Having a magical bottle that is bonded in place and endlessly shoots a high-pressure jet of water? No problem... especially if either the characters have a chance to figure out the trap beforehand or there is a good reason why they can't.

[BattleNymph]

It's not the tiny flask full of bazillions of gallons of water that bothers me; it's the selective physics and the smugness (not on ****'s part, BTW, but the general air of DM's feeling clever about squashing players -- it's kind of like Mike Tyson being all proud of winning a fistfight with a paraplegic). In ****'s trap, the rushing water apparently exerts sufficient pressure to make simply re-corking the bottle impossible, but oh no! No water-rockets... That's a little rich for my blood, personally. Having a magical bottle that is bonded in place and endlessly shoots a high-pressure jet of water? No problem... especially if either the characters have a chance to figure out the trap beforehand or there is a good reason why they can't.


See, you're taking this all very seriously. That's what I love. *smooch*

For me, he just should say, "It does this and if you argue it knocks you over" and I'm good. DM is God after all.

[Chimaera]

See, you're taking this all very seriously. That's what I love. *smooch*

For me, he just should say, "It does this and if you argue it knocks you over" and I'm good. DM is God after all.

Which is my point, really...

And of course I'm taking it seriously, you bonehead... It's a gaming board, yes?

;) :D

[BattleNymph]

Which is my point, really...

And of course I'm taking it seriously, you bonehead... It's a gaming board, yes?

;) :D

As I said, I love it. Being a gamer and this being the first time I've ever been on a forum for gamers it's still sometimes a new and wonderous thing to me.

[Origen]

I'd just say that it's magical oogada-boogada metal, or adamantine magically transformed into a glass-like substance, and call it good.

I also know that I would have never fallen for such an obvious screwhole.

"Leave it be! It's obviously not worth any money."

[BattleNymph]

I'd just say that it's magical oogada-boogada metal, or adamantine magically transformed into a glass-like substance, and call it good.

I also know that I would have never fallen for such an obvious screwhole.

"Leave it be! It's obviously not worth any money."

Ah, but then you get the player like me where that damnable curiosity gets me every time.

[LagomorphPrime]

Had a supers game where the players destroyed all of reality and alternate realities as well. BBEG has a big bomb that sets a chain reaction from the dimension it's detonated in across others, cascade effect, blah blah blah etc etc etc. The PC's know this, it's been carefully explained to them. They FULLY understand what they're dealing with. Party is fighting BBEG, one member decides to "disarm" the bomb by attacking it. I made so many rolls trying to spare them from the detonation, but he just kept hitting it...

Other than that the only other major thing that involved screwing players was getting them to attack the good guys mercilessly and side with the bad guys for most of the campaign, all the while thinking they were doing the reverse. And really, I didn't even have to do much, they pretty much walked right into that one.

[Chimaera]

Had a supers game where the players destroyed all of reality and alternate realities as well. BBEG has a big bomb that sets a chain reaction from the dimension it's detonated in across others, cascade effect, blah blah blah etc etc etc. The PC's know this, it's been carefully explained to them. They FULLY understand what they're dealing with. Party is fighting BBEG, one member decides to "disarm" the bomb by attacking it. I made so many rolls trying to spare them from the detonation, but he just kept hitting it...

Yeah, that situation is always fun... There's only so many whacks with a cluebat yu can deliver, sometimes.

Other than that the only other major thing that involved screwing players was getting them to attack the good guys mercilessly and side with the bad guys for most of the campaign, all the while thinking they were doing the reverse. And really, I didn't even have to do much, they pretty much walked right into that one.

That sounds pretty cool, although more as a really interesting plot-point and role-playing opportunity rather than screwing the players. I've had the whole 'Alias' thing happen: everything you know is a lie, you're actually working for the forces of evil... whatcha gonna do now?!? It's made for some fun, compelling roleplaying.

[LagomorphPrime]

The guy they were initially told to go work for was the badguy, but they didn't know it. And on the way they encounter the good guys, and fire on sight for no real reason. So of course, they're marked as enemies of the good guys now, and over time slaughter good guys left and right. It was funny to me the whole time, and hard to keep a straight face and not give it away until they found out on their own.

[Chimaera]

The guy they were initially told to go work for was the badguy, but they didn't know it. And on the way they encounter the good guys, and fire on sight for no real reason. So of course, they're marked as enemies of the good guys now, and over time slaughter good guys left and right. It was funny to me the whole time, and hard to keep a straight face and not give it away until they found out on their own.

Heh heh... nothing quite like grinding Bloodsail rep, huh? ;)

[LagomorphPrime]

More or less. :)

[Wook]

And what markers are there of its 'optionality'? Does this mean that you feel free to arbitrarily dump even basic, basic physics at will, whenever? No magical markers other than "Water" to get from an Identify spell? No magical reinforcement of the vial? No Suspend Inertia spell in evidence? Sorry, dude, it still sounds pretty cheap to me. There has to be some basic, relatively consistent framework for inference and problem-solving, or else you're just soaking your players gratuitously.

Identify is just one spell and it's the low end version. It tells you the simplist magical function of the device. A sufficiently high bardic knowledge check or a Legend Lore spell will give you all the details. If the players take their time and are careful when the GM uses exposition to set up a trap type situation. Any other magical auras that would be present aren't going to be identified by the 1st level "Identify" spell. Detect magic would reveal an aura of "Transmutation" I never bothered to hammer out the caster level for the device but it would be very high so the power of the transmutation aura would be "strong". The trap is based entirely on it's context. If the players don't open the vial in the room and instead do so in some place wehre the water is essentially not a problem then there's no trap at all and if they take the time to get a, or cast themselves, a legend lore spell they'll know exactly what it is and how it works. Even then how bad of a trap do you think it is. Most dungeons I've ever drawn up could and 10000 gallons of water and only be ankle deep or so. What you get is not more than 10 rounds of the PC's having to make swim checks and hold their breath while the water drains away if it even happens in a room small enough for it to be a problem. We're not exactly talking about a death trap here.

You, Grendel, and I have very different takes on the bounds of fantasy storytelling it seems. I have no problem, and in fact prefer, settings of high powered and common magic that routinely and easily trumps the laws of physics that we live under. A good mud slogging game is fun once in a while but so is throwing down with Miska the Wolf Spider, or pitting my PC's a gold dragon that's 2 age categories beyond Great Wyrm, 2 size categories beyond collosal, 4 headed, and corrupted. If I'm running a fantasy game then the limit of what does or does not exist in terms of magical zaniness is defined by the setting/world. Not the 3.5 SRD spell list. :sawink2:

As to the rest there's nothing arbitrary about the device in question. In prior incarnations of D&D and Earthdawn the rules of how and what the device worked were fundamentally different. (Specifically WRT the way it was enchatned and what the party could tell about it.) If you wanted an inertia nullifying spell take a look at telekinesis or it's big brother Reverse gravity. For reinforcing objects hardness... I've never had that come up actually. The only thing I know of off hand is the enchancement bonus of magical weapons and armor raising the hardness. OTOH there's no evidence that an extra dimensional space requires reinforcement. (Bag of olding, portable hole, Hewards handy haversack, etc...) not the biggest deal in the world IMHO.

WRT GM cheese - Clever and original traps is one of teh jobs of teh GM and it's one of the single hardest. So many have been done, published, and used over the course of years and years that coming up with an idea that would actually be challenging is pretty much not possible unless the GM does something very outside the ordinary to set it up and catch the players off gaurd. It has to be a head game of sorts in order to work. (One of the most brilliant trap setups ever was when our GM in the evil campaign set up the most beautiful pit trap evar by using a glyph of warding to hold a transmut rock to mud to drop us through a dispelling screen into the area that the climatic battle was happening in. We knew there was a glyph of warding but thought the battle was happening in the room before us. Not through the floor and so got caught unprepared for the 200 foot, post dispelled, drop.) And the GM has to mix traps in once in a while because a simple series of encounter after encounter with monster after monster is going to get old, quickly, and become unfun very fast. The setup is almost always desinged to get the players into the wrong headspace so that they step into a trap they could have otherwise found if they'd bothered to step back and think about what was in front of them. I mean a rogue with find traps from a cleric and max ranks in search will find anything that isn't an intentially deadly DC/CR trap. The trick is to get them to not look or have the trap be of such a nature that there's not anything to look for.

[Chimaera]

Dude, you're misreading my objection... it's got nothing to do with high or low fantasy or any of that. I'm a fan of high-magic, high-powered games myself -- I'm so not into the whole pinkeye campaign. I'm not talking about science or realism; I'm talking about internal consistency and fairness. It took you until just this last post to point out that a) there was a thought-out process and rationale behind your trap and b) that your players had some reasonable in-game access to it. What you said before was that you had a fuck-ton of water in a little bottle and once you opened it, the water-pressure prevented re-corking, but the bottle itself couldn't be used as a rocket -- that the action/reaction was mysteriously defunct. That's not a trap, that's just bullshit. Now, you've articulated a somewhat clearer rationale and background... hence, no longer bullshit. Just saying that the bottle doesn't fly around the room because it's fantasyland doesn't cut it. If there isn't some sort of internally consistent mechanic driving the game, the players aren't really much more than passive audiences to whatever you choose to subject them to. Their choices and decisions become irrelevant because there is no consistent framework to operate under. That isn't a matter of high- or low- magic or power; that's just a basic principle of gaming.

[Wook]

Dude, you're misreading my objection... it's got nothing to do with high or low fantasy or any of that. I'm a fan of high-magic, high-powered games myself -- I'm so not into the whole pinkeye campaign. I'm not talking about science or realism; I'm talking about internal consistency and fairness. It took you until just this last post to point out that a) there was a thought-out process and rationale behind your trap and b) that your players had some reasonable in-game access to it. What you said before was that you had a fuck-ton of water in a little-bottle and once you opened it, the water-pressure prevented re-corking, but the bottle itself couldn't be used as a rocket -- that the action/reaction was mysteriously defunct. That's not a trap, that's just bullshit. Now, you've articulated a somewhat clearer rationale and background... hence, no longer bullshit. Just saying that the bottle doesn't fly around the room because it's fantasyland doesn't cut it. If there isn't some sort of internally consistent mechanic driving the game, the players aren't really much more than passive audiences to whatever you choose to subject them to. There choices and decisions become irrelevant because there is no consistent framework to operate under. That isn't a matter of high- or low- magic or power; that's just a basic principle of gaming.

My apologies. The ins and outs of how to deal with the trap were self evident to me and thus left unexplained. :sawink2: How available that process is to the players is dependent upon what level they are. IMHO this would be a really challenging thing for a 5-6th level party and not rate more than a mild annoyance for 10th-11th level party.

[Chimaera]

Coolio.

<lemon-meringue>

[SD Anderson]

****, I think that SD's point about plausibility is a good one... just saying "It's fantasy; suck it up!" isn't sufficient. The players want to be able to be rational agents in the game-world and to be able to figure things out. That means you have to make at least some concession to basic physics (or what passes for such in the group) -- you could pull absolutely anything out of your ass and say "It's fantasy; suck it up!". You have to allow for some form of inferential competence for your players or the game just becomes a random series of 'fuck you's. The really cool traps (not the player-railroading ones; that is, not the plot-device traps) need to be defeasible in some way.

Or to put it in Lit Major mod" It's about a willing suspension of dis elief that allows fiction to be told. Simple fictions are easy you simply say "The characters and events are fictional" and stick to reality beyond that.

Fantasy and SF require a bit more willing suspension of disbelief. Magic Works, you can break light speed etc.

But you have to sell those points. If the magic is internally inconsistent, if FTL travel allows the enemy fleet to materialize in orbit around your planet but your forces have to enter at the edge of a system and give them MONTHS to prep as you transit at newtonian speeds, you're going to start building up a bit of a resistance within your audience.

Case in point David Feinuchs "Hoope" series where a futuristic Earth government runs it's star Navy like the British ran theirs circa 1797. Ok that can be taken but the off hand remark made that /back when some women practiced prostitution' threw the whole thing out the window for me. Human nature is not going to change that much. It had NO significant bearing on the story being told and was simply a factoid he tossed out to the readers. But I point blank rejected it as a claim and it on it's own made the book less fun to read.

When you expanded the trap to give it a cause, you threw out a cause that is inherently sinkable. I gave you a more plausible method to produce that effect. A bottle full of 'compressed water" like it or not has credibility issues. Water not really compressing being just one of them. 10,000 gallons weighs 80,000 pounds. No D&D character could casually pick it up.

Your explanation provoked thinking. Attmpting to shut it down particularly with a lame ass comment like "If's Fantasy" just provokes resentment on the part of the thinker since you're effectively chastising the act of thinking.

Consider: "One day, all the prostitutes and pimps just decided to go out of business and no one since has picked up the profession" being 'justified' on the ground of "It's just Science Fiction!".

[SD Anderson]

I'd just say that it's magical oogada-boogada metal, or adamantine magically transformed into a glass-like substance, and call it good.

I also know that I would have never fallen for such an obvious screwhole.

"Leave it be! It's obviously not worth any money."

At which point the players decide to forgoe rescuing the princess or whateever scenario is up on the docks and go find the source of the oogadaboogada metal. It's clarly worth more than what the King is paying for his daughter's safe return.

If the purpose of the trap is to hit the party and let survivors move on, don't complicate it with an explanation that will not leave the players satisfied.

Satisfied players move on after the trap is sprung. Dissatisfied ones on the other hand are the sorts who meander from the Game Master's plans.

If **** is upset that his trap left a possiblity of helping the PCs,SHOULD they ever be on an icy plain with a solid sledge and no real means of moving it, then by golly he screwed himself. If it's that important that the PCs fail to see profit from the item, then KEEP them in warm places. No flat smooth surfaces like a frozen lake.

Deny them rings of feather falling or access to the spell to stop them from riding the vial's rocket up and doing a few seconds of aerial recon.

[Chimaera]

Y'know, SD... **** did clarify his position...

[Origen]

At which point the players decide to forgoe rescuing the princess or whateever scenario is up on the docks and go find the source of the oogadaboogada metal. It's clarly worth more than what the King is paying for his daughter's safe return.

And how is this different from the players leaving the mission for any reason at all?

"It's adamantine! Let's go find more!"
"It's mithril! Let's go find more!"
"It's iron! Let's go find more!"
"It's salt! Let's go find more!"

If the purpose of the trap is to hit the party and let survivors move on, don't complicate it with an explanation that will not leave the players satisfied.

I didn't complicate it with an explanation. It's oogadaboogada metal. It's the only piece of metal like it in existence. Strangely, it melts in your hand like chocolate when you handle it, and evaporates like smoke. Okay, you catch the smoke in a Force Cage. Good for you!

Usually, at that point, I start hitting the party with small blue lightning bolts out of nowhere that do 1 point of damage apiece.

Satisfied players move on after the trap is sprung. Dissatisfied ones on the other hand are the sorts who meander from the Game Master's plans.

Okay, let them meander. If they're too difficult, sooner or later, I pack up my Guinness and go home.

[Parzival]

I freely admit I'd consider being subjected to ****'s trap "being hosed".

Traps are interesting, every once in a while. But that example seems more like a GM f*cking with his players. (There could, of course, be mitigating circumstances.)
And when traps are involved, IME they're pretty predictable. The issue isn't so much of where the trap is, as how to deal with the trap. Especially when taking fire.

[TinSoldier]

Speaking of traps, The Most Unnecessarily Overtrapped Door Ever. (http://goblinscomic.com/tf5.html) (The last bit of the comic).

[BlueNinja]

Any player that get's bent over this item needs to go sit in the whiny little bitch room. Sigged!

I freely admit I'd consider being subjected to ****'s trap "being hosed". Is that in a literal sense? :D

[Parzival]

Is that in a literal sense? :DBoth literally and figuratively.

I've done Tomb of Horrors/Return to Tomb of Horrors, but I didn't find them fun (or fair, or reasonable).
<shrug> To save Chim the effort, I'll note that all of that is subjective, and my opinion only. Lots of people probably *love* undetectable traps.

If I'm going to play a game against the GM, I'd prefer to make it Paranoia.

[Starhawk]

What Parz said.

[Wook]

<shrug> To save Chim the effort, I'll note that all of that is subjective, and my opinion only. Lots of people probably *love* undetectable traps.


The trap I presented is perfectly detectable. You just have to *think* about what you're doing and what's going on rather than just having the rogue roll a search check. You know, roleplaying and puzzle/problem solving. One of the hallmark signature items of gaming thorugh the ages.

[Dr. Mercury]

I thought this was a "hey, look how I screwed my PCs over THIS time!!" thread.
Oh, it is. I've already posted my stories, but do note that the players I screwed over are obnoxious munchkins who have asked for it. Either they can't play in-character, claim the rules don't apply to their character, or want more than is offered them.

When you do that, you're fair game.

[Parzival]

As GM, you control the world, all the natrual features and processes of the world, all the creatures in it, and are the hand of fate.
You *could* screw players over on a regular basis, but that's not much fun for anybody.

But pulling out Power Word: Cock for someone who richly deserves it can be a very pleasurable experiance for the GM *and* the other players.

The trap I presented is perfectly detectable. You just have to *think* about what you're doing and what's going on rather than just having the rogue roll a search check. You know, roleplaying and puzzle/problem solving. One of the hallmark signature items of gaming thorugh the ages.It isn't detectable as a trap by normal means, you said as much. Nor was any indication given that the puzzle/problem solving is anything but an excuse to hose the players. The players "solving" the puzzle and trying to use it to their advantage was specifically forbidden by you.

Personally, if I encountered a container sitting on a pedastal that had a transmutation aura and identified as water (not that I'd take the 8 hours to cast Identify while in a hostile environment), I'd consider it a plot hook. And my character would almost certainly rationalize taking it with him.

<shrug> In short, the trap may be fair from a gamist point of view, but it's going to screw over narrativists and simulationists almost without fail. (Highlighted by your statement that things don't have to make sense, it's fantasy. As one who is a strong simulationist, I beg to differ.)

[Origen]

I wouldn't even touch it. No way, no how. I would also fully expect it to full Dok Value.

Dok Value, for those who are interested, is when something is incredibly valuable and worth having .... until your character gets it. At that point, it's value becomes neglible or it becomes a liability.

[Parzival]

Org posted while I was editing. I was going to go a bit more into depth on the G/N/S breakdown, but duty calls.

[Wook]

As GM, you control the world, all the natrual features and processes of the world, all the creatures in it, and are the hand of fate.
You *could* screw players over on a regular basis, but that's not much fun for anybody.

But pulling out Power Word: Cock for someone who richly deserves it can be a very pleasurable experiance for the GM *and* the other players.

It isn't detectable as a trap by normal means, you said as much. Nor was any indication given that the puzzle/problem solving is anything but an excuse to hose the players. The players "solving" the puzzle and trying to use it to their advantage was specifically forbidden by you.

Personally, if I encountered a container sitting on a pedastal that had a transmutation aura and identified as water (not that I'd take the 8 hours to cast Identify while in a hostile environment), I'd consider it a plot hook. And my character would almost certainly rationalize taking it with him.

<shrug> In short, the trap may be fair from a gamist point of view, but it's going to screw over narrativists and simulationists almost without fail. (Highlighted by your statement that things don't have to make sense, it's fantasy. As one who is a strong simulationist, I beg to differ.)

Under the 3.5 rules any trap that can be detected by a die roll will, therefore, any trap that can be detected by a die roll represents *zero* challenge unless the involved DC is purposefully set so high as to be undetectable which brings us back to square one. Exp in 3.x is all about the challenge involved in something. A GM is supposed to give his player's xp for overcoming traps afterall.

And here's something I don't think you guys are understanding. AFter the fact if the PC's still have the vial they have the vial. When I say "it can't be recorked" I don't mean that it's a once and done magic item like a potion or scroll. You can't recork it because of the jet of water. (The vial isn't based on forewall or any other spell that would stop the flow. It's based on the leomund's spells and a 0th level cantrip for crying out loud.) The vial isn't destroyed and once it's done spewing water all over the place you can recork and refill at you liesure. It's just that once you uncork it you're committted to however much water is in there being all over the place.

[SD Anderson]

Players have a "Lets' kill something!" mentality. Most will, if given an opportunity to slay another monster, will.

The trick here is to put some relatively weak monsters out and annoy the PCs and have some of them escape to further annoy the PCs.

In D&D use of summoned monsters allows enemies who have consideration for their minions (hey it's POSSIBle to roll every die held by every player and get all '1's, which is roughly the odds of finding such a villainous mastermind...)These buys get the PCs to send their characters chasing them. Being on the run, no mapping.

The trap:

There are secret doors of a sort. Walls that shift positons, reverse and when moved alter the topography of the dungeon. The differences are sublt, but the way the PCs think they came in actually leads to the death traps.

[Origen]

Under the 3.5 rules any trap that can be detected by a die roll will, therefore, any trap that can be detected by a die roll represents *zero* challenge unless the involved DC is purposefully set so high as to be undetectable which brings us back to square one. Exp in 3.x is all about the challenge involved in something. A GM is supposed to give his player's xp for overcoming traps afterall.

That's like saying that any monster whose AC can be hit and damaged by a fighter's sword, or any obstacle that can be overcome by a spell presents zero challenge. That is simply untrue, and a fallacy. What you have presented, however, is a puzzle in my opinion, rather than a trap that can be detected and disarmed.

A search roll is certainly less interesting than a roleplayed attempt at reasoning through a puzzle. You'll get no argument from me, there.

But your statement that a numerical DC cannot present a challenge is patently untrue, and demonstrated in nearly every aspect of the game itself.

[Mouser]

I'd just say that it's magical oogada-boogada metal, or adamantine magically transformed into a glass-like substance, and call it good.

I also know that I would have never fallen for such an obvious screwhole.

"Leave it be! It's obviously not worth any money."

And that's why GM's allow Kenders to live.

Because you KNOW he'd be going at it with a crowbar as the rest of the party was just reaching for the door, and JUST before they opened the door to exit, he'd make a comment like, "I wonder what's IN it?"

And then you've got your drowning scenario.

[Mouser]

Ah, but then you get the player like me where that damnable curiosity gets me every time.

BN's a Kender?

[Mouser]

Usually, at that point, I start hitting the party with small blue lightning bolts out of nowhere that do 1 point of damage apiece.


Sometimes the PC's in question are less perceptive than one might like:

<touch>
*ow*
<touch>
*ow*
<touch>
*ow*
<touch>
*ow*
<touch>
*ow*
<touch>
*ow*
<touch>
*ow*

Hey!!

[Justice]

****,

I am very afraid of giving my Pc's portable traps, like your vial now that I consider it.

Let me give you two terrible scenarios from our old 1st ed. game.

I had a Daern's Instant Fortress that was an adamantine box, some 6" square. You know the one from the DMG? It was very cool to have and use at your command. It however did a lot of damage if you said "Enlarge" without having 20'-40' of distance between you and it. About 3d10-5d10, IIRC. No save. Just take it.

This was to crush any PC stupid enough to open it unwisely, obviously.

Well, that also makes it the world's best hand grenade. With no save. :sagrin:

My ubermensch would take this thing, fling it at a dragon and say "enlarge!"

The GM winced.

Then one time we were being attacked a ship of pirates. A whole galleon loaded to the brim. I didn't feel like fighting. I figured I could just toss the thing onto their deck. (This is a fortress with solid adamantine walls). Say "ENLARGE!" and Splooosh! Bye-bye pirates.

(In this instance, the GM reminded me that the fortress would sink to the bottom. I think I said "Well, I've got water breathing from this item, so I'll just go diving!" I think I decided to spare the pirates, after all, but you get my point...)

Another little terror was the Rod of Lordly Might. One guy on our crew saw it could hit doors with a Storm Giant's strength, just had to be braced on the floor.

He would wait for a foe, set the thing on the floor, and say "You know what this is, bunky?"

They said "Wha-"

Then they'd be flying through the air like they were hit from a catapult.

Now I know that was just the strange and inventive use of a magic item, but that was how our group thought.

So here's what I'd do with your vial of Instant Moat Making. ;)

I'd pay some $$$ to find out what would happen if opened as is. I would then keep the puppy in my pocket, nicely protected.

Next time we had to face 3,000 orcs, or what have you, I'd unload this firehouse on them (with no recoil, I'm safe). Then I'd have the Mage either hit them with lighting bolt in the water or ice storm. These guys would all be standing in some three inches of water. Saves? What's that?

Or if I were imprisoned or inside a large beast, I would uncork it. :D

In that case, I would defintitely make sure I could beathe water in some fashion, but I would keep it. I would find a way to re-fill it. I would love it!

If all else fails, I'd use it to put an Instant Moat around my Instant Fortress. :D

As a GM, I think it best to have non-portable traps.

I'll tell you about me intentionally wearing the Scarab of Instant Death over a protective piece of plate sometime. That was my assassin Black Omni (bows to Sondra Marshak & Myrna Culbreath ). He was a walking death trap.

[LagomorphPrime]

Quaal's Feather Token: Tree ftw!

Cheap and highly useful for all kinds of weird situations.

[Wook]

That's like saying that any monster whose AC can be hit and damaged by a fighter's sword, or any obstacle that can be overcome by a spell presents zero challenge. That is simply untrue, and a fallacy. What you have presented, however, is a puzzle in my opinion, rather than a trap that can be detected and disarmed.

A search roll is certainly less interesting than a roleplayed attempt at reasoning through a puzzle. You'll get no argument from me, there.

But your statement that a numerical DC cannot present a challenge is patently untrue, and demonstrated in nearly every aspect of the game itself.

I'm fine referring to it as a puzzle rather than a trap. :sagrin:

WRT - DC's and Challenge - I'm specifically referring to Search DC's to detect traps. If I used WotC's published DC's and the corresponding CR's they assign to those traps then no trap should ever be a challenge unless one assumes that the party isn't going to ever check for them. IMHO a trap with a CR=Party level should have a DC=(Max ranks in search as class skill)+10. That I base the DC off what the party is capable would be considered harsh by some but IMHO the DC's and ideas that WotC has published are not based upon any experience I've had with the 3.5 rules and don't reflect any reality within the game.

[LagomorphPrime]

But if everything is always hard, doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of a player specializing at something to try and be extra good at it?

Player: I take Weapon Focus Longsword! YES!
DM: Huh. All my monsters now have Dodge. Anything else?

[Origen]

WRT - DC's and Challenge - I'm specifically referring to Search DC's to detect traps. If I used WotC's published DC's and the corresponding CR's they assign to those traps then no trap should ever be a challenge unless one assumes that the party isn't going to ever check for them. IMHO a trap with a CR=Party level should have a DC=(Max ranks in search as class skill)+10. That I base the DC off what the party is capable would be considered harsh by some but IMHO the DC's and ideas that WotC has published are not based upon any experience I've had with the 3.5 rules and don't reflect any reality within the game.

They didn't necessarily make the DCs for people who are as paranoid as me.

:D

[Wook]

Justice,

It's refilled by casting create water on it and takes a corresponding amount of water from each casting. (IE - Slow to fill.) I'm fully aware of just how a clever player could put it to devastatingly good use. I'm sure I haven't considered all of the situations where it could be useful I just know that there are lots of situations where a clever mind would find some interesting way to use it. I'm ok with that.

[Starhawk]

And if two or three spellcasting PCs got together and started casting Create Water inside a bottle in the same way... say, during any camping or downtime when they haven't used their spells... would you be ok with that?

[BattleNymph]

But if everything is always hard, doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of a player specializing at something to try and be extra good at it?

Player: I take Weapon Focus Longsword! YES!
DM: Huh. All my monsters now have Dodge. Anything else?

Hey, sounds like you've been playing in our Saturday game. :crap:

[Wook]

And if two or three spellcasting PCs got together and started casting Create Water inside a bottle in the same way... say, during any camping or downtime when they haven't used their spells... would you be ok with that?

Well with the vial they have I'd have no problem with them refilling it to their hearts content. Figuring out how the item was made... The PC that did that would have to have Craft Wonderous Item, be capabe of casting the appropriate spells, and have the right caster level which I've never stattted out. On the face of it I have no problem with th at. Since it's modeled and inspired by the decanter of endless water I'd have to look at that before stating any numbers. Price and xp costs to create would have to be sufficiently high enough that you could not make this standard equipment for the umpteen commando squads that a high level character can set up.

As to Create Water - This is actually one of the most dangerous spells for abuse in the game. Reach high enough level to have it as an at will spell like ability and then watch the valley's of the world start to fill in and turn into swimming pools.

[David Argall]

But if everything is always hard, doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of a player specializing at something to try and be extra good at it?

Player: I take Weapon Focus Longsword! YES!
DM: Huh. All my monsters now have Dodge. Anything else?

Well, it's more common to have the monster all wearing studded leather instead of just leather, but this is the routine part of the game, or most any game for that matter. The players must be challenged. If they have greater ability, they must face greater challenges. Easy victories are nice, once. After 5? 10? times, they are a bore, and one stops playing. So yes, everything is always hard.

[Mouser]

As to Create Water - This is actually one of the most dangerous spells for abuse in the game. Reach high enough level to have it as an at will spell like ability and then watch the valley's of the world start to fill in and turn into swimming pools.

Can you imagine an Evil Epic Level Cleric with a Water Doman wanting to create a Waterworld out of the Prime Material Plane as the basis for a campaign?

Imagine if the PCs failed?

<imagines a Waterworld Nightfall Campaign>

[Wook]

But if everything is always hard, doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of a player specializing at something to try and be extra good at it?

Player: I take Weapon Focus Longsword! YES!
DM: Huh. All my monsters now have Dodge. Anything else?

The DC I listed was:

Max ranks in Search Skill+10

This means that a player that wants to specialize in search will be able to find the trap most all the time thanks to feats, skill mastery, attribute, and item bonuses. It also means that a character that doesn't specialize in search will actually have a hard time finding traps sometimes. Search is one of those things that a dungeon delving party *should* have. One that doesn't have ranks is going to quickly remedy the problem the first time they get nailed 2-3 times in a session.

Now that assumes a CR value for the trap that is equal to the party's EL. If I wanted a trap that was *HARD* for the party to find at EL+2 I'd bump the DC by 5, at EL-2 I'd drop the DC by 5. It has been my experience that going more than 2 either direction from the party EL quickly enters the realm of farce and sometimes you put in easy traps and mook encounters for flavor but not to be part of the actual experience earning "challenge" of an adventure.

[Parzival]

Again, I should point out that some of you are operating from assumptions that are exclusively gamist.

From the simulationist perspective, challenges get incrimentally tougher only with good setting-based reasons. Exploration of the setting is the primary goal. Challenge level, in and of itself, isn't a major factor. (Other than characters attempting to avoid any difficult challenges.)
From a narritivist perspective, challenges only become incrimentally tougher when it serves the purpose of the narrative. The play's the thing! There should be life-threatening challenge in the climax, certainly, but multiple times every session? Not so much.

Were I to play in ****'s game, I would get hosed. I operate from different base assumptions, and wouldn't be fielding an "optimized" build. <shrug> I might play a rogue that is good at finding traps, but it's a rare character that would have the obsessive focus of using every skill point, feat, and item slot to further refine that single skill.

[Wook]

Again, I should point out that some of you are operating from assumptions that are exclusively gamist.

From the simulationist perspective, challenges get incrimentally tougher only with good setting-based reasons. Exploration of the setting is the primary goal. Challenge level, in and of itself, isn't a major factor. (Other than characters attempting to avoid any difficult challenges.)
From a narritivist perspective, challenges only become incrimentally tougher when it serves the purpose of the narrative. The play's the thing! There should be life-threatening challenge in the climax, certainly, but multiple times every session? Not so much.

Were I to play in ****'s game, I would get hosed. I operate from different base assumptions, and wouldn't be fielding an "optimized" build. <shrug> I might play a rogue that is good at finding traps, but it's a rare character that would have the obsessive focus of using every skill point, feat, and item slot to further refine that single skill.

If I understand the modes you're describing appropriately -

Gamist - Rules Centric
Sumulationist - Emphasis on realism
Narritivist - Story centric

So first of all understand that we're talking about 3.5 rules at the moment. Implicit in the ruleset is that things get harder as you go along. Also implicit in the RAW is that as level goes up power goes up at a not quite exponential rate. A 20th level character is more than 20 times more capable than a 1st level one thanks to the amazing array of PRC's, spells, and magic items available to them. If I understand you're terms correctly then I think it's safe to say that the 3.5 rules are gamist in nature.

Second of all, and following from the first, if you want a simulationist or narritivist style of play I suggest GURPS or White Wolf Storyteller games. I know from previous experience that your idea of "realism" is anything but. It seems more concerned with ensuring that mobs always win and the peseants can kill gods from what I've seen in prior examples. You're certainly never going to find that in 3.x although from what Starkdaddy has said the Conan ruleset sounds pretty damn spiffy in this regard. Peseants don't kill gods but it's got a clean combat mechanic that's long on the brutal combat and short on the pulp heroism of 3.x style games.

Thirdly if you'd like I can go back and quote the several places through this thread where I've stated that the games I run have the assumption of things like this implicit up front and that my players know to expect unusual and magically powered devices of assorted varieties and that I prefer a higher power level that focuses on incredible feats of heroism and the overcoming of "epic" challenges. So I'm rather confident that unless you are somehow deficient as a gamer that you'd be anything but hosed by my style of trap and puzzle box encoutners.

And last you are assuming incorrectly that any one of these is exclusive of the other. I run, and prefer to run, very high powered games with characters that would take the published gods from "Dieties and Demigods" and casually pwn them. This does not stop them from being rich in setting and exposition to help my characters buy into the story and suspend their disbelief.

[Parzival]

Oh, good grief.

I guess I should note that saying there are limits to what human beings are capable of, isn't, in and of itself, indicative of whether you're a gamist, a simulationist, or a narrativist. It's a question of power level and setting preferences.

You correctly note that the GURPS system is simulationist, but define gamism as being rule-centric. I'm a fanboy of GURPS, but you have to admit it's difficult to come up with a more rules-centric system.

Here, read this: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/1
It's pretty long, but you'll like that he states that 3.* D&D is explicitly gamist in design, and leans gamist himself.

I'm in no way "deficient" as a gamer, but I'm telling you that I would get hosed the way you run your game. <shrug> I don't approach the activity the same way you do.
It's important to remain aware of the way other people like to play, and the preferences of your players.
When I came up to Seattle and ran a game, almost everything I had prepared was simulationist, because that's what I am. Most of the players were gamist.
I think everybody had a good time.
But if I'd have tried to force them to play as simulationists and explore the divisions between the churches, the conflict between the nobility and the churches, what the Inquisition was up to and why, the conflict between the nobility and the crown, the conflicts between the races, investigate *why* a respected member of the mafia had been attempting to invoke spirits, *why* creepy things dwelt in the sewers, or several other things I was prepared for, it wouldn't have worked. And it's unlikely that any of us would have had fun.

Is that a clear enough explaination?

[carmachu]

Can you imagine an Evil Epic Level Cleric with a Water Doman wanting to create a Waterworld out of the Prime Material Plane as the basis for a campaign?

Imagine if the PCs failed?

<imagines a Waterworld Nightfall Campaign>


Hmmmmm, that does give me many many ideas....

[Wook]

hehehe. Just open a free flowing gate to the elemental plane of water about 500' above your favorite coastal city and watch the world sink.

[carmachu]

hehehe. Just open a free flowing gate to the elemental plane of water about 500' above your favorite coastal city and watch the world sink.

Now you see, everyone seems to jump to fire and earth elements as desrtuctive. Almost no one thinks of water.

I so like that....

[Mouser]

Well, they've done the "Desert D&D Campaign."

And we've all seen the "Earth D&D Campaign."

Many have worked to put together a "Void D&D Campaign," which has some similarities to an "Air D&D Campaign."

But how many of us have exposed our PCs to the truth, mystery and fear that the phrase, "When you enter the ocean, you enter the food chain." truly should engender...

;)

[carmachu]

But how many of us have exposed our PCs to the truth, mystery and fear that the phrase, "When you enter the ocean, you enter the food chain." truly should engender...

;)

Ocean ones SO level the playing field at times....You can move, cant use certain weapons or spells....

[Starhawk]

hehehe. Just open a free flowing gate to the elemental plane of water about 500' above your favorite coastal city and watch the world sink.

The Elemental Princes of Water might take a little exception to that.

Well, after a while, anyway. That trick should at least be good to annihilate a city or county-sized area.

[Wook]

The Elemental Princes of Water might take a little exception to that.

Well, after a while, anyway. That trick should at least be good to annihilate a city or county-sized area.

Assuming they can stop you. If you're a villian badass enough to do this over a city and keep the local heroes, who should be pretty beefy ya know, from stopping you then the "princes of water" might not be able to stop you and in fact you might even be able to get them on baord with the idea of creating an entire area where water was the dominant element. :D

[Mouser]

Ocean ones SO level the playing field at times....You can move, cant use certain weapons or spells....

And that pesky armor tends to stay in the cabin...

I imagine that Bracers of AC would be at a premium on such a world...

[SD Anderson]

The Elemental Princes of Water might take a little exception to that.

Well, after a while, anyway. That trick should at least be good to annihilate a city or county-sized area.


Earth, Fire and Air might object to the incfreased presence of Water on the prime material plane too. Leads to interesting complicatoins.

[Starhawk]

Earth, Fire and Air might object to the incfreased presence of Water on the prime material plane too. Leads to interesting complicatoins.

I like the way you think.

[Mouser]

Air might not be so concerned, but if Fire and Earth team up:

Lava Monsters

[Wook]

Fire is the only one that would be hopping mad. Earth wouldn't care too much and air is more or less unaffected.

[Parzival]

Do effriti still have Wish?

[Wook]

Do effriti still have Wish?

I think so. Hit the SRD and check it out.

[SD Anderson]

I finally played the trick I had planned against the Pcs in the GURPS fantasy game I'm running.

A couple of not too courageous thugs gthe PCs frustrated in an earlier game came back for revenge. The wizard cast night visions on them and their horses so they could sneak up on the party's camp with minimal risk and set up their ambush from the safety of a 90 yard distance, which really aided their chances of not being heard or seen.

The thugs and merc had bows designed to hem in the PCs. The trap was that the wizard had a wand with the spell "Throw Spell" enchanted into it. This lets regular and area spells be treated as missile spells and greately increases the range.

The spell this wand could throw was Create Animal. The person with the wand could cast this spell so the wand's spell would throw it.


The animal the wizard chose to create was a swarm of scorpions.

Advantage: the scorpions can move. (Albeith as a swarm) and thus I could target the area near my intended victim instead of and thus negate a lot of range penalties.

Drawback: I was merciful and made the target area large enough that the scorpions would have to spend an action moving, so the Pcs would get an actoin.

I also opted to go for fast rate of fire with this, since the PCs, most without armor since they were sleeping at dawn's break were faster than the scorpions. I didn't bother having the wizard cast Independence on the socrpions which would have removed the need for him to concentrate on the animals to make them move.

The idea here was tobe able to put up antoher swarm as needed and thus make out running one swarm a futile gesture. And the archers were supposed to make running full out a bad idea.

Three of the player characters decided to run and dodge as they closed. This did result in three of them being hit by arrows, but only one of the group took enough damage to be dropped this way. The knight in the group got on horse and barebackedly managed to get into combat with the mercenary. The cowardly thugs ran and the wizard followed. Knight took thug out with one hit.

If I do it again, I'll probably use a smaller target area so the scorpions can reach a target on their action o4 uw3 q rqw534 qnimql. A Wolverine vs unarmored PCs has possibliites, though the the region the PCs are in isn't suited for Wolverines. .

Reducing the rate of fire fot the swarms by giving them independence is also an option to consider. The one PC who stood his gorund was safe from the initial swarm when my wizard started prepping for the next sswarm to throw.

On the whole I think it's a good sneaky trick and with a bit of refinement could even be a TPK sort of dirty trick.

[Detritus]

Do effriti still have Wish?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti

Yeppers.

[Parzival]

<shrug> Then the water gate is easily solved.

Back on topic...
I had a player whose character's actions inadvertantly caused the Blood War to spill over into the elemental plane of fire.
;) The effreti were not happy, and he gained a substantial vunerability to fire.

[SD Anderson]

Damned if you do or damned if you take precautions.

A dispensabble level of the dungeon is used for this trap. It's full of petty treasures, rescuable hostages the villain was going to throw to their deaths any way and other temptations. I literally is avoided by dungeon inhabitans who know it's just there to kill of interlopers.

Throw in any manner of traps you want here. The rationale that people (and even monsters) don't live in extremely unsafe environments does not hold sway here. They DON'T live here. Just make it look like they do.

The Doorway room is built around the skeleton of some humongous critter. Hidden behind the stucco and plaster are the bones of the monster. The doorway is it's open mouth. There is virtually no chance of seeing through the disguise. The bones are completely hidden. For D&D puposes say someone with disguise _20 took 20.

Stepping though the door lets this thing chew you up.

If for some reason a turnis made the characters just trigger phase 2 of the trap. When chewing is done or it's turned, the critter moves. The roof on both sides of the door collapses as the skeleton moves and no longer supports it. Tons of rock descend on both sides of the door, alsmost as if the place had specifically been engineered to drop tons of rock on the area.

The rest of the dungeon is alerted by the noise and the PCs who survived are caught in a landslide. Hilarity ensues. (And god help them if they move on into the trapped level.)