View Full Version : Fantasy brainstorming. (Pollish)
Parzival
12-04-2006, 02:56 PM
What should appear in a fantasy genre setting?
Magnus Bergqvist
12-04-2006, 03:31 PM
Magic (or at least myths about it), fair damsels, swords...
/Magnus
the ability of a piece of equipment to take on properties of its wielder. i think we see this time and again when a hero has a trusty [item] that has defended him or her time and again. in D&D terms, i'd consider it investing XPs to provide bonuses/abilities currently only available through magic item creation.
ed
The underlying structure should involve a few mythical archetypes. Either in the villians or hereos but it needs to be there somewhere.
Technology should not be involved. More specifically scientific sensibilities should not be at the forefront.
Fantastical beings, events, or locals need to be part of the story. (So as to distinguish it from just a piece of historical fiction.)
Another thought - In terms of setting there should be a number of old, hidden, and forgotten things in the world. These can be items, knowledge, locations, or entities but it helps to give the setting a feeling of a past.
JasonStarfire
12-04-2006, 04:45 PM
Hidden/forgotten knowledge is a must. Leading the heroes through an adventure to uncover forbidden knowledge of ages past can breathe life into even a lousy adventure.
BattleNymph
12-04-2006, 05:39 PM
A really meaty villain. The heroes can't be heroes without a grand villain!
also, evil gods or demons or some such obvious antagonist. an evil race is always good, too.
what about an evil empire? too cliche?
ed
JasonStarfire
12-04-2006, 05:56 PM
also, evil gods or demons or some such obvious antagonist. an evil race is always good, too.
what about an evil empire? too cliche?
ed
I'd say that the 'evil empire' cliche is one that can be scaled to fit the game world. If politics figure heavily into the setting, then an evil empire is the way to go. Otherwise, it could just be a small settlement of evildoers, or behind the scenes evil corrupting the otherwise good kingdoms.
yes but in the most general terms - a distinct and palpable good/evil dichotomy, order/chaos dichotomy, and civilized/un dichotomy all help to accentuate different parts of the world...
JasonStarfire
12-04-2006, 06:31 PM
yes but in the most general terms - a distinct and palpable good/evil dichotomy, order/chaos dichotomy, and civilized/un dichotomy all help to accentuate different parts of the world...
Well put. Black and white cliches can help make characters (and certain NPCs), with all their shades of gray, stand out more.
i dunno, i think you need the obvious antagonists, but i also think you need more self-interested parties as well, enough to make a difference. w/out 'em, things get too predictable, i think.
ed
i dunno, i think you need the obvious antagonists, but i also think you need more self-interested parties as well, enough to make a difference. w/out 'em, things get too predictable, i think.
ed
That's why you put those dichotomies into the game. It's not that you're creating villians/heroes. You're creating characters, groups, places, and cultures. Which ones become anagonistic will be highly contexual based upon what the PC's are and what they do...
i think that having more "human" organizations that are less archetypal/concept-centric are also useful. for example, while it would be good to have an entity (nation/guild/cabal) that represents order/logic and its opposite representing chaos/emotion, it would also be useful to have another organization, perhaps a splinter/fusion of the two that takes a more holistic approach and acts periodically as a spoiler.
ed
i think that having more "human" organizations that are less archetypal/concept-centric are also useful. for example, while it would be good to have an entity (nation/guild/cabal) that represents order/logic and its opposite representing chaos/emotion, it would also be useful to have another organization, perhaps a splinter/fusion of the two that takes a more holistic approach and acts periodically as a spoiler.
ed
Absolutely. Plot the extremes with the who's, what's, how's, and why's of them and then figure out the particulars of the shades of gray that will inevitably exist in between.
JasonStarfire
12-04-2006, 07:11 PM
I find that I often come up with an overall group with seemingly narrow goals, and add more layers of detail as I go along. That way, the groups/factions/people that the PCs interact with the most become more 3 dimensional
BattleNymph
12-04-2006, 07:27 PM
Seriously, I want to play you in guys games. The way you guys talk about the worlds sounds like your worlds will be amazing. :(
BlueNinja
12-04-2006, 09:30 PM
Seriously, I want to play you in guys games. The way you guys talk about the worlds sounds like your worlds will be amazing. :( Sometimes it's easier to come up with the good groups/NPCs than with others. I'm sure all of us who've GM'd have thrown out a 2D cardboard cutout NPC for something brief, and then been forced to add more depth. You want to play as us? :wtf: :p
Back to the topic at hand, IMO fantasy settings should not have psionics. And sci-fi/futuristic settings should not use psionics as a replacement for magic.
TinSoldier
12-04-2006, 10:41 PM
I've been thinking on this topic all day. It's not always easy to figure out exactly what elements are needed to make a game "fantasy".
Even though I love Tolkien and original D&D, I think people get too hung up on having most of those same elements in their fantasy genre. Elves, dwarves, orcs, and dominant humans. It's certainly a valid choice, just not the only one.
Relatively primitive tech base -- most technology is still based on human or animal power although there may be some other technologies such as steam or firearms.
Magic -- Magic is usually used in a fantasy genre to replace high technology and powerful weapons. One problem that I see in the current D&D game is that everyone takes magical effects for granted. There's nothing wrong with that, but I prefer magic to be a mysterious force that most people are fearful or superstitious about. Probably from reading the Warhammer FRP game books.
I do think that a sense of wonder is probably the most important single element in a fantasy-based game.
Government and society -- another common element is that most fantasy games are set in an idealized feudal / medieval generic Western Europe. The world has a lot of other interesting cultures with good ideas to steal from. You still want enough familiar elements to keep your players' interest, but as I said above a sense of wonder will definitely help hold their interest.
JasonStarfire
12-05-2006, 12:51 AM
Even though I love Tolkien and original D&D, I think people get too hung up on having most of those same elements in their fantasy genre. Elves, dwarves, orcs, and dominant humans. It's certainly a valid choice, just not the only one.
I think that particular issue is a matter of habit. It's become such a cliche staple of most decent works of fantasy that a lot of people just can't see it any other way. It's a shame, really, because when a game or work of fantasy comes out that doesn't adhere to those genre conventions, it gets unfairly criticized for it. :(
Parzival
12-05-2006, 03:01 AM
A very partial list: (Obviously, my opinion only.)
Magic of some variety should exist. The more mysterious the better. Capricious is good too. There should be a cost or risk, associated with using magic.
Muscle-powered weapons are the peak of martial tech, while windmills and waterwheels are the peak of civilian tech.
Taverns/inns should be fairly commonplace.
Social stratification should exist, with friction between the classes.
Many different gods, all with their own agendas and followers. (And preferably factions within their churches about how to best serve their god.)
Intrigue.
People who can say, in all accuracy, "I am the law". And there is no appeal.
Possibly several races with radically different worldviews.
Monsters.
Every major town should have an intricate underground sewer system. For unobserved entrance/fleeing the city, cladistine meetings and skullduggery, and for boogeymen. (Despite the historical inaccuracy of such a thing.)
Secrets.
Smugglers. Bandits. Street gangs. And natural hazards.
History.
Mutual-aid societies. Secret and otherwise.
Serfs and peasants, peasants and serfs. And an occassional draft animal.
Mud, muck, and manure.
The threat of plague, famine, or war ever-present.
Corruption and ambition.
Love and hate.
Fear and courage.
Stories, myths, legends and songs.
Beer, wine, whiskey, and perhaps other options.
Punative law. At least as much to keep the commoners in their place as to dispense justice.
Night is a scary thing. As are holes in the ground. And haunted ruins.
All information that you have not personally and recently aquired is hearsay. That bridge could be washed out, that ford may not exist, that well-marked road may lead straight into a bandit ambush.
Communication is slow. And is not always reliable.
Travel is slow.
Time passes slowly. Diversion isn't always readily available.
Interesting and compelling characters (both PC and NPC) are a must.
Slang, vulgarity, and profanity.
You may be surrounded by the ruins of a civilization neither you, nor your children, nor your children's children (unto the seventh generation) can ever hope see approached, much less equaled or surpassed.
Buildings in prosperous towns are normally wood and thatch. In other words, very flammable. And packed close together.
Coins being of variable worth. Especially with debased, clipped and shaved coins floating around.
No banks to speak of.
Detritus
12-05-2006, 04:07 AM
"Intrigue."
One thing in particular that comes to mind is power politics between Church and Crown.
Why, yes, I am re-reading Katherine Kurtz. Why do you ask?
Stephane
12-05-2006, 10:36 AM
About magic? What scale of magic are we talking about? Are we talking about big kaboom type of magic? Trumping Card type of magic (like AD&D at high levels?)?
Since I've read ed's game, I've been thinking about a low level magic fantasy game where magic is all pervasive. You can't get big kaboom magic, but you can imbue stuff with magical properties. So you would have lots of decanters of endless water, but few, if any, wands of fireballs.
TinSoldier
12-05-2006, 10:37 AM
Every major town should have an intricate underground sewer system. For unobserved entrance/fleeing the city, cladistine meetings and skullduggery, and for boogeymen. (Despite the historical inaccuracy of such a thing.)Except as far as
All information that you have not personally and recently aquired is hearsay. That bridge could be washed out, that ford may not exist, that well-marked road may lead straight into a bandit ambush.Because that would be nice and evil for them either to not find a sewer where they expected one or it was barely passable at all...
TinSoldier
12-05-2006, 10:41 AM
About magic? What scale of magic are we talking about? Are we talking about big kaboom type of magic? Trumping Card type of magic (like AD&D at high levels?)?
Since I've read ed's game, I've been thinking about a low level magic fantasy game where magic is all pervasive. You can't get big kaboom magic, but you can imbue stuff with magical properties. So you would have lots of decanters of endless water, but few, if any, wands of fireballs.I think it depends... I prefer low magic myself where magic is an uncommon and wondrous thing whether high level or low level. Your average person is unlikely to experience "real" magic during his lifetime. Many things that he has been told were magic were actually just parlor tricks or sleight of hand. You can't walk into Ye Olde Magick Shoppe and buy real magic items, they must be found as part of a quest.
I kind of like your idea of relatively common low-level magics though.
JasonStarfire
12-05-2006, 11:30 AM
Parzival's list is pretty good. Also, players will expect all of those things to be going on at the same time in excruciating detail.
This is where ad libbing comes in handy. :D
ldygmr1
12-05-2006, 12:38 PM
What should appear in a fantasy genre setting?
The fantastic. The beauty of fantasy is the ability to toss the laws of reality.
I notice you did NOT specify place or time for the fantasy. So you could defy gravity, or light, or sound. As well as the well known magic and myth.
What should appear in the setting? A story deep enough to engage creative imaginations and the means to survive said story. Even if just barely.
JasonStarfire
12-05-2006, 12:46 PM
The fantastic. The beauty of fantasy is the ability to toss the laws of reality.
I notice you did NOT specify place or time for the fantasy. So you could defy gravity, or light, or sound. As well as the well known magic and myth.
What should appear in the setting? A story deep enough to engage creative imaginations and the means to survive said story. Even if just barely.
Depends on the group, I guess. You could slide the fantasy meter to "wallow in the dirt, but with magic!" or as high as "half-demon celestials with flaming swords of ultimate power in the skyborne kingdom of the prince of the golden shield."
stephane: i'd forgotten that you've seen that. heh.
ed
SD Anderson
12-07-2006, 01:02 AM
Multiple opposing forces work well in fantasy. F'rex I ran an AD&D campaign where the overall plot was an attempt by forces of evil to obtain the v'ena artifacts and recreate him.
I had the 'bavrian Illuminati as one of the forces and a Death Master working for Orcus trying to get the artifacts for the chaotics.
The PCs were in the middle.
SD Anderson
12-07-2006, 01:13 AM
Muscle-powered weapons are the peak of martial tech, while windmills and waterwheels are the peak of civilian tech.
On sea, there's often a tech discrepancy. Most saling ships described in fantasy seem to be Late 100s or even Napoleonic in structure, cannons excepted. If we assume a 1200s setting equivalent minus gunnes and powder aand plus magic, as the base, what anachronisms are suitable or even expected?
Edit: In fact, you mentioed one. Wet sewer systems.
Werent' common in lower tech places. People emptied chamber pots out windows. In fact, it was common practice in southern cities occupied by union forces, for women (who were les likely to be arrested) to 'accidently' dump the contents of chamber pots on passing Union officers.
The sewers of Paris, for example, site of Richelieus death in that horrible 'Disney Three Musketeers with Charlie Sheen wer dry did not exist in the intrim between Louis XIII and XiV. And when they were built they were DRY, as the scenes from Les Miserables detailed.
Now if Earth magics are common enough this would be different since a town could afford to di deeply enough to set up a sewer grid.
Cranky Dog
12-07-2006, 11:48 AM
well, in my case it's a matter of realizing i screwed up in the world i created. it's too damned happy.
It reminds me of something I realized during world building over the years.
Making a fantasy setting is damn easy.
Making a -believable- fantasy setting is difficult.
Right now, in my current setting (on hiatus at the moment). I designed a town that felt real. There may be a few anachronisms (some sewers) but was still believable and gave the feeling that it would live on even without the players.
Little things I like to give to my designs are:
-The purpose. Why is there?
-A bit of history. Since when and what happened since?
-Local community. Who's who.
-Local interests. What is there to see or do that isn't adventure based?
Something not usually thought of is non-magical landmarks and locals. How many fantasy Mount Rushmores are there? There can be abandonned castles without any monster, ghost, ancient curse or treasure inside of it. No that stone circle may have been used for sacrifices a thousand years ago, but now it is completely non-magical and of no interest by any evil creature. You can drop in a city where a new statue is being carved in the cliff-face that will only be ready in a couple of years.
Each kingdom should have its theme (in the sense that ancient France and England looked and felt different even if your average farmer still acts and thinks like a farmer). Even if we're talking about non-human races, one dwarven kingdom should feel different from another one. The further away the kingdom, the more different it feels (say like Europe vs Asia, both grand in their own way).
Magic and technology is iffy. For example, I won't give barbarian tribes crossbows and siege weapons though they may be advanced horse breeders and know many advanced techniques of survival that would amaze a big city citizen.
Magic is always known to exist but limited in use as I prefer concentrated populations of magic wielding people. There could be a Hogwart equivalent where every second floor tile is magical, but step outside and nada. Those sort of places would've been the work of centuries of magical addition. But in the average countryside, the best you can hope for is a guy that makes healing potions or can do useful magic (like mending a broken object).
It's working the economy that is the biggest challenge. Epic heroes have gear that can buy half the continent yet no one really carries the cash for all that. My idea is to really put more emphasis on barter and non-treasure like valuables. A deed to a land can be worth thousands but you can't really make small change for it.
Wars and major events in other countries that will never affect you in your lifetime exist. You may hear about it, but most of the time you'll be blissfully unaware or won't even care that the Tarrasque ate half a kingdom one thousand miles away, unless it's a kingdom you don't like.
Something not often considered is the weather. It is -not- always nice and sunny. It is -not- always the night of the full moon. You know that dark cult that was about to call an ancient evil to the world on the stroke of midnight under the moonlight? Yeah well, it rained that night and they're stuck waiting for another thousand years.
Urm, that's all I have for now.
Cranky Dog
"I have a fantasy world tips opinion, international!"
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