Rate my character.

[TinSoldier]

Okay, so on another board I'm on we're having a tournament. ECL 15, 30-pt. buy, 200,000 GP.

I didn't want to ask for optimization help because even though I'm not as familiar with the rules as some I wanted to do it myself instead of getting too cheesy. Well, maybe a little bit of cheese. I like cheese.

What we are supposed to do is create our characters as part of a four-person team to go up against monsters that the DM throws against us. I asked and we aren't supposed to have PvP at the end, he'll just throw more monsters against us until there is only one standing. That will be interesting.

I think the DMs (there are two of them) are about as experienced as I am; when I jokingly suggested the Hulking Hurler build, one of them was disappointed that I was only joking.

Anyway, here's my character: http://profiler.byronhicks.com/view.php?id=69
Should I have gone a more traditional route (standard races, higher levels) or is this a decent build? I don't plan on changing anything but I would like to learn.

I don't understand the term "battlefield control" very well, and I would like it explained to me, but I think that is what I was going for here. I wanted a character who was nigh invulnerable yet could dish out some pretty good damage. I think the spiked chain is pure cheese and that is why I chose it.

Any comments or suggestions for the future?

Oh, and we are pretty much using core/SRD. Anything else has to be approved and I don't have any "anything else" myself.

[Starhawk]

71 hp at ECL 15 is terrifying. Less than 5hp per effective level for a melee character?

Your AC is decent, and your DR 10/evil is a nice add-on -- but you're a "splat" waiting to happen, if you get tagged with a crit or a series of iterative attacks.

At ECL 15, I'd expect dragons, giants and evil outsiders (which bypass your DR). All of these can gobble you up in melee (see: cornugon). Use that Teleport at will ability a lot.

For a last-man-standing tournament, I'm not sure this character has a lot of staying power unless you play the coward.

A ranged-death build, on the other hand, combined with Teleport at will and maybe some Greater Invisibility spells, would sure drive DMs batty trying to catch you.

[TinSoldier]

Thanks, Starhawk. I thought the HP was kind of low, too.

I didn't have guidance on HP (I should ask for some) so I went average (full at first, half and half plus one every other level). I think this is one part where the +5 LA kills me--that's like 20-25 HP.

The main reason I chose Hound Archon was the DR and SR. I'm not sure what we will be up against, yet...

Edit: Bypassing the DR would require a weapon or attack with evil, right? (Although that is likely). Not just a critter who is evil himself?

[TinSoldier]

Another thing: Facing evil, my Magic Circle Against Evil should work pretty good unless they have a pretty high SR.

Looking in the MM, the basic Hound Archon with 6d8 HD only has 33 HP so with only four more levels I've come out okay I think.

[Wook]

+5 EL adjustment is toooo much of a glass jaw. Don't do it man. You'll die, lots, often, and quickly.

[TinSoldier]

+5 EL adjustment is toooo much of a glass jaw. Don't do it man. You'll die, lots, often, and quickly.Really? Even with all of the extras I get?

Can I get similar or greater abilities going a more traditional route (or lower LA)? Do the abilities outweigh the lower HP?

I'm studying here, so any answers you can give me as to why or how instead of a rote "do this" are very much appreciated.

[Wook]

HP are HP are HP and they are what determine how fast you'll die. At 18th level disintigrate will AVERAGE 126 damage and could concievably me maximized. A maximized fireball will do 60 by itself. Melle opponents will be doing 20-50 pts of damage per attack. You'll be lucky to every see your second initiative count. For survivability there is NOTHING better than monk 2/cleric X (13 in your case.) Your feat selection could remain intact although I recommend power attack over whirlwind. Whirlwind is rarely, if ever, useful. You have to be STANDING in the middle of the crowd at the START of your action to use it.

[ed]

****: i'm feeling obtuse. why is monk 2/clr x the optimal mix?

ed

[TinSoldier]

ed: I'm going to assume for evasion and combat reflexes. That's why I did Monk 2 for this character. I had considered Rogue 2, but realized that monk was better.

BTW, ****, thanks for the advice. We'll see how quick this character gets turned to goo :D . Edit: I think I'll make up a human Monk 2/Cleric 13 just for grins and see how it comes out.

[Wook]

****: i'm feeling obtuse. why is monk 2/clr x the optimal mix?

ed

Evasion, +3 to all saves, wis to AC, and touch AC and an AC potential that meets or exceeds his armored counterparts without inhibiting his movement. Especially if you want to be a dex fighter like TS was going for. You also have the ability to heal yourself which is just about hte most valuable thing you can have in the sort of bear pit scenario TS is describing. At 13th level you're not giving up heal/harm as well which is in the "must have" category IMHO.

[Detritus]

One thing about SR 20 in an ECL 15 scenario is that most casters in the 15-ish caster level range are going to get through SR 20 most of the time. Caster level 15 + Greater Spell Penetration means automatic success vs. SR 20 (unless a roll of 1 fails automatically), for example. A 17th-level caster with no particular boost to caster level checks gets through SR 20 90% of the time.

This is a kernel of a build that is somewhat specific to counter your Hound Archon build, but an 11th-level Wizard with Greater Spell Penetration, the Quicken Spell feat, and a Lesser Rod of Maximize (14,000 gp, well within an 11th-level NPC's budget) can uncork a Quickened True Strike + Scorching Ray through the Metamagic Rod and have +20-ish to hit on a ranged touch attack (negating your NAC) that will do 72 points of damage, with no save, assuming the caster rolls 5+ on its caster level check to beat SR 20.

Four of these guys make up a CR 15 encounter, and if they have, say, 4 9th-level melee types for bodyguards, that's still only CR 16, but you could go from full HP to unconscious with one shot from one of the casters while you are dealing with one of the melee speed bumps. And this is with capping the CR of any individual opponent at 11. A straight Fighter 15 with a base CON of 14 and a +6 CON item will have 162 HP, and could absorb 2 maxed Scorching Rays, for comparison.

[TinSoldier]

One thing about SR 20 in an ECL 15 scenario is that most casters in the 15-ish caster level range are going to get through SR 20 most of the time. Caster level 15 + Greater Spell Penetration means automatic success vs. SR 20 (unless a roll of 1 fails automatically), for example. A 17th-level caster with no particular boost to caster level checks gets through SR 20 90% of the time.

This is a kernel of a build that is somewhat specific to counter your Hound Archon build, but an 11th-level Wizard with Greater Spell Penetration, the Quicken Spell feat, and a Lesser Rod of Maximize (14,000 gp, well within an 11th-level NPC's budget) can uncork a Quickened True Strike + Scorching Ray through the Metamagic Rod and have +20-ish to hit on a ranged touch attack (negating your NAC) that will do 72 points of damage, with no save, assuming the caster rolls 5+ on its caster level check to beat SR 20.

Four of these guys make up a CR 15 encounter, and if they have, say, 4 9th-level melee types for bodyguards, that's still only CR 16, but you could go from full HP to unconscious with one shot from one of the casters while you are dealing with one of the melee speed bumps. And this is with capping the CR of any individual opponent at 11. A straight Fighter 15 with a base CON of 14 and a +6 CON item will have 162 HP, and could absorb 2 maxed Scorching Rays, for comparison.Youch!

I'm still not very familiar with tweaking out magic stuff, I need to study that some more. In AD&D I never liked playing spellcasters because they always started off so weak.

As for the fighter, I never thought of a CON item. Hmm. Food for thought.

[Detritus]

I'm still not very familiar with tweaking out magic stuff, I need to study that some more. In AD&D I never liked playing spellcasters because they always started off so weak.
They aren't that much better at low levels in 3.x, but once you are talking about an adventure for 15th-level characters, those low-level weaknesses for the arcane spellcasters go away.

There's also the question of how well the DM knows the game/how cheesy the DM will get running the adventure. A Maximized Scorching Ray is definitely on the cheesy side of things, but it's a real possibility. The 72 damage vs. 71 Hound Archon hit points was kind of an accident of numbers, but an illustrative/attention-grabbing one.

As for the fighter, I never thought of a CON item. Hmm. Food for thought.
Hit points are one of those things that is basically Always Good To Have More Of. If you can afford a +6 CON item, that would be another 30 HP for your character. It'd be worth an extra 45 HP for a +0 LA character.

[TinSoldier]

You've already convinced me to switch out the Amulet of Natural Armor for a Amulet of Health +4. **** has convinced me to take Power Attack instead of Whirlwind Attack.

I was wondering whether AC was better or HP was better. I think your example answered that for me. Of course, it's good to have both :D !

I was thinking about your example, and if I faced up against a spellcaster like that then I would use a Bead of Force against him first, if I won initiative. That seems like a pretty nice item to have a few of.

[TinSoldier]

I updated my character by tweaking the things I said above as well as my magic items. I hope it works out. Click on the link in the first post if you are interested in seeing what is different.

I still like the Hound Archon race because I got a lot of buffs that would either take time to cast or money for items to match. I don't think the others I'm playing with (including the DMs) are very experienced either.

Questions for ****: If I was to make a Monk 2/Cleric 13 character along the same lines, should I concentrate my stats in Wisdom and Dexterity? Take Weapon Finesse? Buy magic items to increase Constitution and Strength (I would need a 13 Strength anyway to take Power Attack)? Which spells would be most important to prepare? Which magic items would be the most important to purchase? Again, core/SRD only since that is what I have (Unearthed Arcana is SRD).

I'm intrigued with the idea. Maybe building a character around high racial buffs and spiked chain wielding wasn't the best idea. However I would probably be bored if everyone in the tournament made a monk 2/cleric 13 in order to compete :sacool: .

[Wook]

Give yourself the minimum needed str to take the feat and give yourself the divine power/righteous might combo for combat purposes. Large size, fighter BAB, reach, and an extra 13hp. Make sure you have at least 1 heal, 1 harm, and one grtr dispel magic available for your spell slots if you can. Divine favor is your friend as well. Bulls str is a good way to buff up to 22 str. If you have the feats and books to use divine metamagic and persistent spell do so and be buffed 24/7 and then use a cheap hat of disguise to make yourself look like an ogre. :sawink2: For stats I would place it at minimum needed str and then focus primarily on wisdom and follow up with dex and con in equal amounts. Set int at 10 and don't bother with cha unless you're going the divine metamagic route.

[Wook]

Ditch the celestial armor in favor of bracers of armor and wings of flight or some such, or fly potions. Then get a wis item and a decent set of bracers. Unencumbered movement, especially with an enhanced movement rate, is teh bomb.

[TinSoldier]

Ditch the celestial armor in favor of bracers of armor and wings of flight or some such, or fly potions. Then get a wis item and a decent set of bracers. Unencumbered movement, especially with an enhanced movement rate, is teh bomb.Thanks, ****. I'll look into that.

(I didn't really get the celestial armor for the fly ability, mainly because it sounded cool.)

Until you mentioned the monk's wis bonus to AC above, I didn't even think of that. I took 2 levels of monk purely for evasion.

Edit: Umm, I don't get the enhanced movement unless I take three levels of Monk. I didn't do that. However the Hound Archon already has a move of 40 and that gives a +4 bonus to jump checks.

[Cranky Dog]

I noticed you didn't have a wand of CLW. They're the price of one potion of Cure Serious Wound and have 50 charges. So you could drop one potion (which are always useful during battle) and buy one wand for the between battles healing.

Incidentally, did you take into account the +1 to one stat because you have four character levels?


Cranky Dog
"I have a character reviewing opinion, international!"

[Cranky Dog]

I was wondering whether AC was better or HP was better. I think your example answered that for me. Of course, it's good to have both :D !
And then there comes a time where having high saving throws is also essential.

At the levels you'll be playing, there are plenty of spells where failing your saving throw will be quite painful, if not outright deadly.

It is a difficult balancing act to get all three at high enough levels to feel adequately safe.


Cranky Dog
"I have a saving throw opinion, international!"

[TinSoldier]

I noticed you didn't have a wand of CLW. They're the price of one potion of Cure Serious Wound and have 50 charges. So you could drop one potion (which are always useful during battle) and buy one wand for the between battles healing.Thanks for the tip. I'll take it if I can use it without any spell casting levels.

Incidentally, did you take into account the +1 to one stat because you have four character levels?I'm sure I did. I use PCGen to create the character and then put the data into the RPG Web Profiler manually. PCGen keeps track of those details and pops up a dialog when I need to bump a stat or whatever.

I really, really need to create an output sheet for PCGen that will output for RPG Web Profiler automatically. I looked at it a little bit last night and it can be done, but it's just a lot of work. But it's less work than copying it over manually time after time after time.

And then there comes a time where having high saving throws is also essential.

At the levels you'll be playing, there are plenty of spells where failing your saving throw will be quite painful, if not outright deadly.

It is a difficult balancing act to get all three at high enough levels to feel adequately safe.


Cranky Dog
"I have a saving throw opinion, international!"Yup, I agree. That's why I got the cloak of resistance even though I've got good saves along with a bonus against poison and immunity against electricity and petrification. Plus I get another bonus of +2 because of the Magic Circle Against Evil that is always present, assuming I'm facing something evil.

[Cranky Dog]

Thanks for the tip. I'll take it if I can use it without any spell casting levels.
Actually, you do need to be able to cast it. But since you seem to be taking cleric levels, it becomes a moot point.

And it is practically called a wand of Standard Equipment. It's surprising how some of the cheaper magic items can be pretty effective. Look at Quaal's Feather Token (Tree). For 400gp you can make a 60ft tall tree appear anywhere! Even the Bag of Tricks can make for cheap trap checkers and/or extra muscle. Even the rodents of the smallest bag can be used to do the Aid Another maneuver.


Cranky Dog
"I have a wand equipped opinion, international!"

[TinSoldier]

Actually, you do need to be able to cast it. But since you seem to be taking cleric levels, it becomes a moot point.

And it is practically called a wand of Standard Equipment. It's surprising how some of the cheaper magic items can be pretty effective. Look at Quaal's Feather Token (Tree). For 400gp you can make a 60ft tall tree appear anywhere! Even the Bag of Tricks can make for cheap trap checkers and/or extra muscle. Even the rodents of the smallest bag can be used to do the Aid Another maneuver.


Cranky Dog
"I have a wand equipped opinion, international!"Heh, "Wand of Standard Equipment" :D

Well, the character I am going with (Hound Archon Outsider 6/Fighter 2/Monk 2) doesn't have any Cleric levels. The Monk 2/Cleric 13 is an alternate build that was suggested. I'm still playing with that.