magic in fantasy

[ed]

sparked in part by my ever-increasing disgust w/ the D&D magic system, what things do you want to see in a fantasy game's magic system?

here's what i have off the top of my head:

1. not everyone can do magic. it requires aptitude + training. this can be represented in the ruleset in various ways but is probably most easily expressed as some kind of advantage/feat in conjunction w/ skills.

2. i don't accept the vancian/D&D model of "great, i can cast 2 more spells today and then i'm done until tomorrow". that's nonsense. that this same thing that shakespeare so wonderfully called "the art" has limits on how often it can be expressed is utterly wrong-headed. to impose some sort of limitation, fatigue would work better. in D&D terms, fatigue might constitute subdual damage.

3. i believe that there should be several types of casting spells: things that a practitioner can do w/out thinking about it (during combat), and ceremonial or ritual spells which require considerable effort, resources and time to work. the former is quick, may not even require a formal spell to follow--it's the equivalent of an accomplished cook whipping up a plate of scrambled eggs. by contrast, ceremonial or ritual spells would be the equivalent of a six course meal, to continue the cooking metaphor.

4. in a pseudo-medieval setting, why would there be mighty spells that create 7 different effects all revolving around combat, but no spells that permit trade or that prevent spoilage of perishable goods? this makes no darned sense at all.

i'm sure i have more. what about you? anything in the foregoing w/ which you disagree?

ed

[Lost Soul]

An additionnal point:

5-Magic should never be a required part of the solution. For instance, AD&D golems that were basically invincible except if you had +3 weapons are NOT interesting. D&D 3.x's DR system is better, but IMO, magic should always be a bonus, not a necessity.

And a couple comments:

3-I disagree with the idea that a fantasy game requires wizards flinging fireballs in combat. It's a valid form of play, but it's not necessary. I won't highjack this thread, but my next campaign will lose that side of magic. Ask if you want more details.

4-On that issue, I've always assumed that there's a bunch of spells available to casters and not written in the PHB. "Mass Peel Potatoes" is a bit too specific for the core rules IMO. :)

[Kalzazz]

1. Anyone can do magic. In theory. Its like calculus. Of course, this requires time and money and teaching and all, and well, most people just dont learn it. (Most non hero types dont even learn to read) Some people will be better at it then others, but theres no Binary Magic Y/N switch

2. A mage should be able to fling magic just as readily as a fighter swings a sword. If he wants to cast a thousand fireballs in a row, more power to him. Actually, he may well cast a thousand fireballs in a row while hes practicing, just like the fighter may well swing his sword 1000 times in a row. After all, if he doesnt practice practice practice then in the stress of staring down a dragon Id expect him to blow himself up rather than the dragon, I havent practiced calculus to much, I could do some in the comfort of my own house fine, but in the heat of battle Id probably screw it up

3. I agree there, but I think you need casting rolls in combat to, just like fighters need rolls for swinging there swords.

4. Makes sense. But Bob the PC wizard is much more likely to want to buy Fiery Death Mk IV than he is 'Currency Conversion Calculator Mk V' or 'Sheep Shearer v2.4' or 'Calf Birther Beta Edition Gold', so it makes much more sense to stat Fiery Death Mk IV in the rulebook

5. Magic should come in three sorts, winged, homebrew and professional. Professional spells are the sort you dig up from the ruins of the Tower of Ancient Sorcery, get given by the gods, or get from the Reputable sort of Ye Olde Magic shops. They are efficient and powerful at using the mages energy and perform there task pretty much as expected, due to long studious work by teams of trained professionals and much testing, optimization and proofreading. Homebrew spells are something a wizard whipped up himself, probably not so efficient or fine tuned, but at least somewhat tested and proofread and all, so not as potent they more or less work

Winged spells are what you get when the wizard realizes he never bothered to learn any form of Slay Dragon and a ticked off dragon is flying right at him, so he tries some idea, throws magic and hopes for the best. They tend to have Very Interesting results. Which may not be good

6. Spell tuning. Say Mercedes is a mage. Shes female, 5'5" and has red hair. So she can go through her spellbook and rework her spells so that they are hard coded that the caster is female, 5'5", redheaded and named Mercedes. Less variables for the spell to calculate, more power in the final result. Same with a city 1000ft above sea level when producing 'Smell Fresh' spells for its sewers and 'Stay Bright' spells for street lights, could put in the cities exact altitude and thus, more result for same power. Of course, if Mercedes decides to bleach her hair then she has to redo her spells, and if Joey kills her and loots her corpse he has to rework the spells to use them himself

However, doing such spell tuning is tricky and requires much more understanding of magic than just casting the spell to begin with (which is already complex enough), and since many of the professional spell writers dont want people mucking about with there spells, the spell possibly has the real meat of it in Archaic Floodleeese while only the 'User Input' part is something the user couldreally understand. Or Ye Olde Magicke Shop might tune the spell for the purchaser before they sell it. That way if Mecedes, Alonso, Joey, Kate and the Crimson Penguin all want 'Breath Water v0.87' they ALL have to buy it, they cant just buyone copy and share share share

[ed]

LS:

3. i didn't mean to suggest that it should, but some kind of magical whammy is a bit of a constant in contemporary depictions (e.g., professor moody/goblet of fire).

4. ah, but as an attorney you know that you cannot assume [x] from an absence of evidence... :D

5. i like that. i like that a great deal.

kal:

1. i disagree b/c i have a friend who cannot speak french. he couldn't speak three words of acceptably-accented french if his live depended upon it. there are people who simply cannot learn certain things.

2. you want magic to model the reality of anime games. that's cool, but that isn't what i'm after.

5. funny you should mention about "homebrewed" spells...i'll explain why a bit later in the thread.

ed

[Parzival]

<blinks> Is ed really going to convert to GURPS?

[Kalzazz]

1. I agree some people CANT do certain things. But I think if anything 'incapable of learning 3 words of French' is a story note, most people given proper training can learn French or Magic or whatever. Someone making a fighter could give him the story of 'Bob actually wanted to be a mage, but well, he really really really sucked at it and flunked out in his first year of mage school, so, with student loans to repay (and mages really will take it out of your hide if you dont, spell components!) he started whacking goblins over the head and taking there stuff. By the time he paid off his first semesters tuition he was a level 1 fighter!'

2. Magic to model the reality of anime games? All anime games Ive seen use a SP system, which isnt what Im after at all.

Basically it ticks me off that a seemingly normal thing for a mage to do, tossing a generic attack, somehow runs out of ammo, while a seemingly normal thing for a fighter to do, tossing a generic attack, doesnt

I wouldnt however be opposed to a variable scale of tiredness however. For a level 1 mage Magic Missile represents Das Uber Omega Attack! It makes sense that would tire him. I think he should be able to toss Ray of Frost all day long however

Or maybe make Bob the Fighter take subdual damage from swinging his sword to? Would make reasonable sense Bob would get himself tired out doing that

[Kalzazz]

True

ed does seem to be describing the GURPS Magic System pretty well

And lo, GURPS DOES have a 'Bob the Fighter gets tired from swinging sword!' mechanic

[LagomorphPrime]

Bob's sword has no range or AoE. Spells are FAR more powerful than a slash.

[Eiji]

I always took magic to be a sort of spiritual muscle. The more magical you are (and the more you've trained) the beefier you are on the spiritual side to bend that energy this way and that.

What balances it out between fighters and mages is that magic is more time intensive.... one sword swing vs a complex hand motion and mental dancing.

[LagomorphPrime]

Being a good fighter is more than just "swing this hard". Ask any devoted martial artist.

[ed]

parz: no, b/c i dislike the core GURPS mechanic.

ed

[carmachu]

What I liked was Monte Cook's idea on rarity of spells:

Common spells, all types of spell casters know as common.

intermediate type commonality: Spells arent always known by certain, races, groups, areas, but can be found with a bit of work.

Rare spells: Spells that pertained to one or two casters. FInding them should be a not so minor undertaking.

I also liked the idea of dimished and imbued effects: youc an learn a spell at a higher or lower level, and it has worse or better effectys, depending.


Magic should be something to work for, not common like it is in D&D at times....magic shops on every corner and such. Aptitude and dedication and all...

[Windhaven]

I worked on a spell system for my supers game.

All powers in that game, and a lot of physical effort, exhausted you. So did a lot of damage. I used "Vitality" to represent both exhaustion and stun points.

You used what was essentially a "Feat" to create a "spell pool". A spell pool was something you set up when you took the feat, and could add to as you choose. Each point of Vitality you *permanently* dedicated to the spell pool added two points of capacity to it.

You could prep spells by pre-casting them into the spell pool, where they would wait until you used them. You could do this any time you had the energy available to cast the spell, and the time to do it. You tended to do this while resting. You could be at full Vitality, exhaust yourself storing up spells, then rest and recover back to full Vitality again.

Spells cast from the spell pool were fast-cast. You just had to invoke the trigger words or gestures and the magic happened. Spells cast directly took longer. One had a time measured in seconds, the other in actions.

The power level of a spell you could learn was based on your level (Yes, it was a level based supers game. So sue me.) But if you want to master Invoke Fiery Death Mk IV, you had to also know Invoke Fiery Injury Mk III, and Summon Fiery Pain Mk II, and Cause Annoying Blisters Mk I.

Each spell had prerequisite spells you had to master, and mastering a spell took a skill point. In fact, many of the more powerful spells had multiple spells of the next lower rank that you needed. So spell casters might well know a variety of spells, including "utility" spells at the low levels, but would tend to specialize into one or two types of magic in their higher level spells. You just didn't have the skill point to be a true master of all the schools (read "spell chains") there were.

Using a system like this explains why dedicated Wizards tended to be relatively frail, physically speaking. They had to give up some of their stun/exhaustion points in order to be good at magic. And the greater their power reserve, the more fragile they are. Want to be a fighter-mage? Not a problem, but you'll probably be slow-casting your spells.

And, since stun points are recovered with rest, you may well be able to cast 50 fireballs in a day, if you can take a rest in between castings.

[Wook]

Magic needs to be some sort of fluid resource. I've considered a number of mechanics to govern that idea. I don't especially like the spell slot idea personally although i do file it under "good enough for government work" for the most part.

1. I've considered going to spell points where the maximum level of spell known/castable is equal to 1/2 level rounded down. Metamagic feats get added on the fly and doing so requires spellcraft checks. Spellpoints wouldn't recover on an "I rested for 8 hours so now I'm back at 100%" basis but rather recover at some reasonable rate depending on what the character is doing. (Yet to be determined.)

2. Spells can be cast on an unlimited basis but do d4/spell level pts of subdual damage when cast. (But then liches, vampires, and intelligent constructs become TERRIFYINGLY overpowered so I see this as very problematic.)

[BattleNymph]

I haven't played in enough different systems to have an opinion on how magic should work.

The one thing I can say is that the game where they let us mages make up our own spells was heck of fun! Now there's binders of new spells approved by the GM that the players designed in game.

[JasonStarfire]

I've been kicking around the idea of a D&D variant where you get "Spell Points". They're gained just like hit points, and serve an equally abstract purpose (like a combination of magical aptitude combined with endurance). Fighter types would roll a d4 for hit points, Wizards would roll d12, etc. Add your Intelligence bonus (or primary casting ability bonus, depending on class). That way you don't get totally screwed by multiclassing, but you're better off sticking to magical classes if you want a lot of spell points.

[ed]

windhaven: conceptually, i like the idea of prereqs for learning spells, although i would imagine that could get unwieldy if the range of spells is very large. and that's an inventive way of achieving the norm of physically-unfit magicians.

****: any thoughts thoughts on magic in the fantasy genre that are D&D-agnostic?

BN: what game was that?

jason: i was working on a houserule for D&D that included a base magic bonus that would enable casters not to take it in the shorts when multiclassing when i finally realized that the BAB mechanic is a bad model and i should switch to a fully skill-based version.

ed

[Wook]

****: any thoughts thoughts on magic in the fantasy genre that are D&D-agnostic?


D&D is just a ruleset. Setting is how I would evaluate magic fitting inito a fanstasy setting. There is an ocean of difference between doing Slayers Tri, Tolkienesque, Lieber/Howard style, or something Blackcompanyish. Magic would fit differently into all of them. What you need to do is adjust whatever underlying ruleset you use to fit the setting. Something reminiscient of Tolkien, Lieber, or Howard could be accomplished IMHO by using D&D and not allowing primary spellcasters into the mix for example. (In a tolkienesque setting you'd use a few pure spellcasters for important NPC's like Gandalf and Elrond...)

D&D can be modified easily enough to fit my needs in any given scenario. hero 5th is great for being customizable to but some assembly required. Gurps has it's upsides but is best done for gritty, mud slogging, bloody things like a Black Company game.

[Lost Soul]

One aspect that Windhaven touched upon was best put forth in Iron Heroes: build the system around the encounter instead of the adventure/session/day.

Instead of having 20 spell point per day, you have 5 max, but they recharge at a rate of 1 every 5 minutes. (Or you have spell charge tokens :) )

[SD Anderson]

<blinks> Is ed really going to convert to GURPS?

I ws thinking the same thing as I read his post. ;) ed says he doesn't like the core maechanic but the basic system can be overlaid onto toher core mechanics

Lets see.Without getting game mechanical: Spells are skills. Just about anyone can learn a spell. Under certain circumstances knowing a spell without being able to cast it is enough to let you help a caster cast it. CASTING it is a different matter. You either have what was even called in earlier editons Magical Aptitude or you have to be somewhere where the potential for magic is very strong, to make the spell work.

It's TIRING to cast magic. The better you know a spell the less tiring however.

Tactical spell casting for turn based combat and ceremonial casting to get others to help power the spell which takes longer to cast, producing longer duratoins and/or bigger effects. A host of optional rules for a different way to cast spells doesn't hurt. (And while a non-disclosure agreement keeps me from saying anything substantive, something I can honestly describe as 'A thing of beauty' is coming down the pipeline.regarding this topic.)

The spell list is reasonably good for NPCs who never see a fight. The prerequiste system for learning spells means characters who pick up combat spells end up learning utility spells to get them.

It's a pity you dislike the system Ed, as far as I can see the actual magic of GURPS meets everything you listed as desired.

[Starhawk]

The problem with magic in fantasy GAMES is that it's inherently different from magic in fantasy BOOKS and MOVIES.

In games, one must consider balance -- in general, the magic-using characters must be roughly on par with everyone else (unless you're playing Ars Magica).

In books and movies, on the other hand, sword-swingers just Do Not Compare. Magic is often the Nuclear Weapon of the genre. Wizards can level cities, conquer nations, and genuinely have their way with just about anyone. Gandalf could have slaughtered Bilbo and the dwarves (all of them!) at the drop of a hat -- and could have probably dealt with Smaug as well, had it been necessary. Even the mighty Conan had a healthy fear of the Hyborian sorcerers and what they might do to him.

[Chimaera]

I think that if you're going for a generic system, you need to create a wide range of options, because as **** has stated, there's pretty much a different theory of magic for every setting, usually in place because it serves the dramatic purposes of the author, not with needs of gamers in mind. Otherwise, you create a specific magic system for a specific setting.

Personally, I find the trouble with magic and magic-systems in games is that by the very act of articulating, formalizing and mechanizing them, you've stripped them of what made them fun to read about to begin with. People plan out their wizard characters and their advancement with a foresight that is ridiculous, planning on what spells they need when for what. It's almost a paradoxical problem, given that the rules-knowledge required to effectively play the game simultaneously strips it of the wonder and discovery that one looks for -- a sort of an RPG Heisenberg principle...

[ed]

****: IMHO, the D&D ruleset is so darned rules heavy that it distorts the gameplay experience into a very specialized style of play that i don't think can be described by anyone who isn't deeply steeped in it as anything remotely resembling good at other types of fantasy gaming.

i could point you to an example of a system designed to to accommodate many visions of magic that i began a while back but frankly, i don't know where i put the thing right now.

LS: as a design philosophy, designing to the encounter sounds vastly more useful to me. but then again, that monte is a bright guy.

SD: i have a nodding acquaintance w/ GURPS and while i respect jackson's work, i don't much relish it. :>

starhawk: but why design a system that can't at least get closer to the source material from which the game sprang? while you're right of course, a number of things could get closer.

chimaera: i agree, but as you know from my variant work previously re: core classes, i think there are ways to expand options while retaining flavor. yes, some loss of flavor is necessary (love the RPG heiesenberg principle idea--i wanna see that meme disseminated very broadly) but i am beginning to wonder if it wouldn't be possible to hit some kind of happy medium.

ed

[Magnus Bergqvist]

My ideas of magic in fantasy are these:

Everyone should be able to learn magic, though it would require lots and lots of studies and training. So add some kind of magical aptitude pre-requisits. Likewise some types of beings such as fey should be much better at using magic than mere humans.

Magic should NOT be fire-and-forget. It should instead have some kind of price in form of fatigue/hp-damage depending on the power of the magician and the power of the spell attempted. The more powerful spell, the heavier the drain, and some magic might be so powerful that they require the magician to draw power from outside himself. Such as many mages combining their power to form a gestalt, or he draws power from the environment and other beings through LONG rituals or sacrifices. On the other hand a really powerful magician wouldn't even break a sweat when using everyday cantrips (just that mundane means are probably in most cases quicker, cheaper and more efficient to use.)

Here you would also have that certain types of places or times of the year (such as equinoxes, midsummer and midwinter) would have a different magic-level than the rest.

The types of magic that would be "common" would be healing, and things that help everyday work, such as mending broken items, or imbuing them with protective magic to make them sturdier when making them (such as cups that won't break. Musical instruments that will always be tuned the right way etc. ). Add magic for helping with travel, trade and sex (magical viagra, love potions, magical help for either getting pregnant or avoid getting pregnant).

Next step on level of commonality should be scrying and summoning of various critters such as spirits/demons.

Mages as walking-field howitzers should be EXTREMELY rare and everyone should fear someone capable of doing that. If a low-level pig-farming environment then this kind of magic should be the stuff of legends. Instead you would have curses/geasa.

I would prefer to not have fixed spell-lists. Or at least you should have the ability to come up with a magical effect on the fly, though it might not be as good as something that you have studied and prepared a long time before.

/Magnus

[Chimaera]

The way I see it, an RPG exists to provide a language that articulates characters and stories in a way that allows for some objective ajudication and the application of uncertainty to restore some of the drama lost via self-direction and collaboration. To bend that language to any other end seems foolish to me... much like the distinction between prescriptive and descriptive grammars. Building balance into the ruleset seems like a bad idea (Newspeak as opposed to English, to really strain the metaphor) - the balance should grow out of the pragmatics, not the syntax or the lexicon. The beauty of language is that you have a finite rule-system that is infinitely productive and infinitely generative. While it sometimes spawns monsters, we can readily identify them and ignore them... The overwhelming semantic load of the act of communication between people comes not from the spoken utterance, but from the set of shared assumptions that underlie that communication (Grice's theory of converstional implicature (http://online.sfsu.edu/~kbach/grice.htm)). That's where I see balance come into the equation -- to belabour the V&V episode, even my house-ruled V&V has little to no real internal balance. There are a few readily identifiable power combinations that yeild invincibility. But any finite rule-system is subject to abuse... Instead if trying to do the impossible -- create an unabusable formal system -- an RPG system should focus on creating a useful and elegant lingua franca and leave matters of balance to be sorted out by the participants.

Okay... that was really tangential... I don't know if this thread is even the place for this post. Oh well... it kind of just burbled out.

[Chris]

For all the munchkin flack the AD&D "build-your-own-adventurer" books get (Skills & Powers, Spells & Magic, etc.), the magic book had some really cool point-based magic system variants.

We used to play with several of them and I found them to really have potential.

I'd strongly recommend them as at least source material for any attempts to create a point-based spell system for 3.5.

[Chimaera]

WotC's Psionics rules make a perfectly functional spell-point magic-system. Just change all of the belaboured synonyms for head, brain and nervous system. It certainly doesn't do it for me as a psionics system... unless you want to play all psi as Akira...

[ed]

chimaera: i'm glad you cited the language metaphor b/c that's one way i've thought of it for some time and inexplicably didn't recall when replying previously. another metaphor i've employed previously is designing a database, although i don't know if you've done much work with databases in the past.

i've had something burbling in my subconscious for some time along these lines. i haven't touched it in forever, though. i should address this tonight.

ed

[David Argall]

4. in a pseudo-medieval setting, why would there be mighty spells that create 7 different effects all revolving around combat, but no spells that permit trade or that prevent spoilage of perishable goods? this makes no darned sense at all.

There are a huge host of spells that aid trade or prevent rotting or ... But as noted, these are just not interesting to adventurers. In mage school, you decided to be the battle mage type and ignored spells useful only for the peaceful life. And the spell/rules books reflect that choice. They just don't mention the spells you are not interested in.

Note here that we get new combat spells all the time, but it is assumed that these spells are not the product of any new research. They always "existed" in the game world. The PC just didn't have contact with them before.

[ed]

don't be a twit, david. show those spells to me in any core book and i'll agree. as i know for a fact that you can't, do go away.

ed

[Landis]

Well ed, you know my thoughts on the matter. :p

For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, I speak of a conversion of Ars Magicka/Mage to a d20 ruleset. It's complicated as all get-out sometimes, but it works for our group.

I've set my system up so that all spells deal at least one point of subdual damage, and the vast majority deal 1d4 (or multiples thereof - it's based on the Spellcraft DC to create the effect). While in theory this does make creatures immune to subdual damage horrifying from an "I can cast as many spells per day as there are seconds in the day" angle, those critters (especially the liches) are going to be on-scene for only a very short amount of time (and should be terrifying anyway).

What I'm considering doing is making access to higher-level magics harder to obtain. As it stands, by 15th level any wizard can have access to the second most powerful levels of magic, and they need to take a feat at 18th level to reach the pinnacle. I'm not exactly sure how I'll accomplish this, but I'd like to see something with more flavor than simply having to take a feat. Perhaps a quest...

[Adam G]

The thing that irritates me about the D&D style of magic isn't the whizz-bang fireball effects. It's the over-reliance on healing magic and buffs. Danger isn't danger nor heroism heroic if, five seconds before the event, everyone snaffles their magic steroids; or, five seconds after, everyone's drunk the refreshing, glowing kool-aid.

I thought ed was describing the Ars Magica system, not GURPS, tbh. Particularly when he started talking about ritual as opposed to instant cast spells.

The only other system I can think of that comes close is White Wolf's Exalted, particularly with its charm system. Not strictly magic in the classical sense, I know, but it's the only system I can recall that makes a distinct attempt to tackle social combat as opposed to other, more direct forms of fighting.

What do I look for?

1. Rarity. True magic should be scarce. Few practitioners, and fewer truly powerful ones.

2. Magic should be bound tightly within the moral ethos of the game. It should be an ethical choice, not a tactical one, as to which brand of magic is used. Otherwise killing and murder is just another side effect, and it no longer matters whether you strike directly via fireball, or indirectly by poisoning the cropland and wells.

3. While I agree that magic should affect all levels of life & society, including trade, I'm happy to leave large chunks of it as 'background noise'. There may well be spells that preserve meat, or enhance communication, or regulate the affairs of a township. Those spells don't have to be described, nor do there have to be rules for them. That's the kind of detail I leave up to the GM.

[Cranky Dog]

Uniqueness.

Not everything magical can be reproduced nor explained. If my setting has renaissance level technology, then I want renaissance level comprehension and knowledge about magic.

Magic is an art/science that is still in development. Its understanding is less than that of common technology. A necromancer may know the names of every body part without knowing what most of them do and an alchemist does not know the periodic table. So magic is limited by contemporary science.

When you get a boost in science, you'll eventually get a boost in magic. Imagine how telekinesis would be improved with an understanding of Newton's laws.

In a way, magic users would be more akin to technicians, applying damn well what they learned and mastered. But very few would be genuine scientists, trying to gain more and more comprehension as to how everything works.


Cranky Dog
"I have a magical opinion, international!"

[Eiji]

Actually now that I think of it... take Eijilund, a high tech, high magic world. Because they have so much technology, most of the magics (for public use that you see common) are either cantrips or utilitarian... make that metal bar in your robot stronger, or make your engine run faster.... some of the technology IS part magic, and it's fused into one in the same. The most common form of engine for starships is the Ether Engine, a technological device that draws from an inherently magical source (it's basically a magic jet engine, feeding on the all prevading aether instead of air).

I also employed mages that have combat rather than utilitarian spells, and the strongest spells are usually owned by some high military mage. They're a class of their own who fits into the scheme with people who pilot, people with guns, people with robots, etc.