Abusive characters in any game system

[SD Anderson]

Windhaven can tell you about a Champions character who did 666 Killing area effect: the world for a final cost of 70 pts.

There are legions of D&D characters with +5 everything.

Here we list characters who cearly were made to abuse the rules.

A GM who knew Rolemaster applied RM character design philosophy to GURPS. Serious error but he found a way around it.

As I understand RM you coulod lower high stats profitabloy, that is generate trait resources that would build up your skills and this trade off more than paid for itself.

He tried this with the GURPS and hit the problem that skills were attribute based and he had to try and overcome the deficit he created by lowering his Attributes. Mathematically a good deal of skills meant this was a losing proposition.

Well he opted to GM and made characters for his two buddies.

Each had Attributes of Eight. in all 4 categories. Using the sixtypoints this generated and five more points from the initial outlay, he bught the following for them. 1) 7 levels Military rank assigned Grand Admiral of


Space Sector Fleet. Six ranks of STatus assigned President of the planet.

His buddy had them reversed, being Viceroy of the sector and General of the Planetary army.

Mind you, these two characters were utterly inept at anything they tried to do being borderline retarded, clumsy, sickly 98 pound weaklings.

But they got around that. As heads of their military, they assigned themselves battlesuits, which they wore all the time in public. The suits gave them better ST, DX and Damage resistance, as well as a protective environment to bolster their effective HT scores.

Had he added an onboard computer that would functoin as a their skills they'd have gotten away with it.

As it was these heads of state/heads of militaries did the jobs of second lieutenants and did so rather poorly.

The other players were not thrilled so he gave them an extra 100 points to improve their characters. No one bothered.

So, what system tweaks have you encountered? And were they funnier than tragic, vice versa or became funny much later?

[Baelfyre]

An old Champions character of mine name Shining Knight would qualify. 300 pt game, and I had a 250 pt gadget pool with the rest in points to modify the gadgets.

It didn't seem that bad to the GM until I put down his Juggernaut in one punch.

The character was retired by the GM shortly afterwards. Apparently Juggernaut was supposed to pound us into the ground to capture us and get us sent into space.

Oops.

[nermal2097]

Solo's in Cyberpunk2020 can get pretty horrific esppecially if maxed out with Combat Sense. they can do lots of different skills better than other roles. Personally I have never seen it abused like that though. The one Cyberpunk GM I had was reallt cool and the players all had interesting characters not just stereotypes.

[TinSoldier]

Solo's in Cyberpunk2020 can get pretty horrific esppecially if maxed out with Combat Sense. they can do lots of different skills better than other roles. Personally I have never seen it abused like that though. The one Cyberpunk GM I had was reallt cool and the players all had interesting characters not just stereotypes.As much as I love the Cyberpunk 2013/2020 settings, are there any other character classes that people take than Solo? That is my one problem with the system--everyone wants to be a Solo. While the other classes have good flavor no one takes them. The advantages of being Solo are just too great.

Note: My first CP game I played a gay techie and did pretty well. However the question still stands.

[Baelfyre]

I played a tech and a corp through pretty extended games. They were both fun classes, but if you GM focuses on combat (and in my CP experience, most do)any role besides solo is gonna be meat chunks real quick.

Then again, with a little bad luck your solo is meat chunks too.

I was running this one game where the players started out as 10000 eb borgs; chromed to the max; remaining emp stat at creation of like 2. They were cleaning up when an arasaka goon with an autoshot w/slugs blew both their heads off with a lucky roll.

They were both understandably upset that the characters they had spent most of an hour writing up died in the first encounter.

So I let them make "clones" of the characters and started them over. The same thing happened.

After that, they wanted to put up CP 2020 for the night. I can't blame them.

[Cranky Dog]

Way back, before people realized how much Palladium sucked, I played for a while in a game of Robotech during the first series era, after the Zentreadi blasted the Earth.

We were special units, I don't remember what we were exactly doing, but in that factory with protoculture vats, some characters fell in them.

That's when we lost control. Those who felt in became mutated with all kinds of beneficial abilities. Running at the speed of a car, growing a second heart that would give you a bonus life. One of the female characters gave birth to octoplets who were all mutants and more powerful than the normal characters. Babies are not supposed to crawl at 50 kph!

And the other players started "accidentaly" falling into protoculture. They managed to turn a mecha game into a supers game.


Cranky Dog
"I have a protoculture addict opinion, international!"

[JasonStarfire]

As much as I love the Cyberpunk 2013/2020 settings, are there any other character classes that people take than Solo? That is my one problem with the system--everyone wants to be a Solo. While the other classes have good flavor no one takes them. The advantages of being Solo are just too great.

Note: My first CP game I played a gay techie and did pretty well. However the question still stands.

I played a Rockerboy in my first CP game, and after he bit the dust I played a cyberware-laced Cop (using up all of the cash my character had.. prompting a catch phrase for the rest of the game (in a neanderthall-esque voice) "Robocop POOR!" :D

In the first Mutants and Masterminds game I ran, one of the characters managed to abuse the Absorption power pretty badly.

I made a Werewolf: the Apocalypse character that could do ridiculous amounts of damage in one round (at character creation). Statistically, iirc, he could kill a room full of vampires in one round. A big room full of vampires in one round.

This character wasn't exactly broken, but my first Hackmaster character had a cheesy way to basically double his critical threat range. It was completely unintentional. I didn't realize it until one of the other players pointed it out.

[Chimaera]

In the first edition of M&M, it was easy and extremely cost-effective to max ranks in Boost, with 'all stats' and 'permanent duration' enhancements added. Even without adding gratuitous and ineffective limitations and you could walk around with Rank (PL) Super-Stats for peanuts...

[nermal2097]

As much as I love the Cyberpunk 2013/2020 settings, are there any other character classes that people take than Solo? That is my one problem with the system--everyone wants to be a Solo. While the other classes have good flavor no one takes them. The advantages of being Solo are just too great.

Note: My first CP game I played a gay techie and did pretty well. However the question still stands.

In the several years we played with the GM mentioned above we had just about every Role in CP2020 plus some more that weren't. As I said in our game it was about the characters and not the combat. My own original PC was a nomad with some cyberware (an eye, an arm and few other bits) but he was fun to play. Our party corp was an utterly ruthless SOB (a Gemini full borg), he actually sold one of the other PC to a Corporation for medical testing. So I would say that it really depends on the group of players you have and what kind of GM you have, as with any other game I guess. I know that I have, in the past, been extraordinarily lucky when it comes to having the right players in the right game so my own experience is a little skewed.

[Kalzazz]

I have much more problem with PCs being wimpy than I do with them being overpowered, and I tend to kill them to often rather than have them kill everything

[Parzival]

From a GM standpoint, I really don't mind abusive characters.
There's nothing easier to bait than a munchkin.

Every strength is a weakness. <shrug> Someone who is an uberfighter will get in fights he should have avoided. The challenge of the combat pales in comparison to the challenges raised as a consequence to the combat.

It also works for non-com abusive builds.
eg. Someone adept at ferreting out secrets will be sticking his nose into the business of powerful people.

[Detritus]

A few dots in Celerity go a long ways in the World of Darkness, whether it's Storyteller or GURPS. 4 dots of Celerity in GURPS V:tM (24 points, 48 points if Celerity isn't a clan discipline) effectively gives you 2 levels of Altered Time Rate (200 points) for 2 hours at a time.

[Chimaera]

Yeah, it was pretty kooky, the way they priced disciplines in GURPS V:tM... Maxed ranks in Puissance, Fortitude and Celerity were way cheaper than trying to build the equivalent in GURPS Supers.

[carmachu]

I'm usually building them, but I've toned down to the level playing field I'm in. Its no fun beating folks that arent at teh same scale.

One of my last champion characters had a nice NND, sonic, linked to his running behind him as a speedster. Dropped the DM's major brick in one turn.....he wasnt happy...

[Archer]

I've never liked getting hit when playing a superhero so I always drifted toward Spiderman-like characters or whatever passes for unhittable in a given system. Heck, Spiderman wouldn't get hit by most of his opponents except that it'd hurt his comic book sales to be untouchable.

In Champions, I did a normal SPD 5 but with DEX 38. Basically to hit him the bad guy would have to have an attack that hit an area rather than a target or at least think of picking up a car and using it as a fly-swatter. And if I was careful, I could avoid working near large fly-swatting objects.

And a costume with an elemental control consisting of a low amount of protection from every defense allowable in the system which was supposed to protect me from most "No Normal Defense" attacks and when added together was a decent amount of defense.

I eventually bought another set of powers with huge limitations. Basically it kicked in only whenever all of my other teammates had been downed for the count and I was outnumbered by super-villains (to keep triggering only in combat as opposed to death-traps, etc.). I'd become enraged, lose use of my ranged powers, and try to kick butt with levels of growth and some stats boost. (It was bought as a multiform that I had no control over.)

You see that kind of things happening in comics but I'd never seen it in a game. It turned out to not be very fun since the couple of times it kicked in the rest of the players didn't have anything to do until they awoke.


I also did a Champions character in a short-lived campaign who had good stats for a human, immortality, martial arts, a few skills, and spent the rest of the points in Luck. In Champions, Luck really only kicks in if you are over-matched and this guy was over-matched by most super-villains. And with that much Luck, odds are that you'll make the roll for Luck and some spectacular fluke will save your hide. I enjoyed it more than the GM who didn't get into the spirit of things.

It was difficult to get a win with him but it was often possible to take up the full attention of a superior opponent whose main weapon was luckily malfunctioning and whose girlfriend unexpectedly showed up.

[LagomorphPrime]

*sigh*

I really need a tabletop group again. :cry:

[nermal2097]

I feel for you, I am only 20 odd miles from my usual groups but dont get to play at all.

[LagomorphPrime]

I took a break from tabletop gaming because I just had too much on my plate and couldn't attend regularly. I felt bad about missing half the sessions, so I just went on hiatus. Meanwhile the group has filled up and there's no room at the table (6 PC's + the DM last I heard) so now that I have free time every weekend again I don't have a seat at the table anymore. :cry:

[ed]

pfft: you mean warcrack had you. 'fess up. we know the truth. :D

ed

[LagomorphPrime]

Yeah, that was a part of the equation. I've cut back on that too these days, just waiting for the expansion in mid-January. :D

Even when that comes out though, I'm gonna take it kinda easy, I'm close to burn-out as it is now.

[ed]

ah, go full-bore burn-out. then you won't leave your blushing bride a warcraft widow for much longer. :>

ed

[LagomorphPrime]

She plays too. I've mentioned that before. :p

[Grendel]

Like Parz said, it is impossible to abuse a system. I love when a character wants to be the best 3var uber-combat master of the universe. And he realizes in the very first fight what that is going to mean, as he gets double and triple-teamed, just like the PCs do when they meet up with someone big and nasty. ;) And every point put into something great is NOT put into something else that is important.


are there any other character classes that people take than Solo?

Absolutely. We tend to have maybe one solo and often none. Why? Because shooting first doesn't mean that much when a dozen people are shooting. Sure, you will get the drop on the guy you're shooting at and most likely blow his head right off of his shoulders. And then the other 11 guys will take you out. A whole party of solos? That just means bigger groups of enemies with more armor, more skill, and more firepower than previous enemies. Or, better yet, working against the many weaknesses of your typical militarily-tweaked characters.

[Justice]

I have created some pretty nasty ubermensches in V&V. My favorite and logical and an NPC Hero was one who could tap into the power of a black hole for Density Control (Size Change weight with no height), Teleportation and Invisibility.

He had Gravity Control and Bionics as well. Ht Int device gave him limited Cosmic Awareness (more like super ranged Ht. Senses) and Willpower (defense or 2x HtH).

Needless to say, he was nasty, Teleporting into a space weighting 10 tons and slamming people around. Invisibly. He never needed to ask where you where, he knew.

What makes V&V so fun AND abusable is that you are to randomly roll for powers, which can have very very nasty combos if you get lucky - say Ht. Intelligence AND Weakness Detection (which gives a to hit bonus based on your Int.)

Its like mixing chemicals. As long as you know sodium should not contact water, you're going to be OK. You forget, and POOOM!

GM: What'd you roll?
Neophyte: Uhm, Non-Corporealness, Psionics, Disintegration Ray, Animal Powers and Regeneration. Also Speed Bonus. What should I discard?
GM (straight-faced): Anything but Speed Bonus. Keep that.

:D

[Wook]

I'll let you guys DM for Dohvak some time. Rules can't be abused my ass! I watched a GM deliberately set out to kill his character and it could not be done. I've watched him cover every potentiality in his character and exist in an untouchable bubble of invulnerability while being able to smite his foes with impunity. Unless you're going to be so hands on with character design as to hand him his chracter and say "here is what you get and no more" it's pointless to even try and stop him. Whatever boundries you set he finds the in's and outs of and applys to the best possible benefit. he's a QA programmer. It's what he does.

[SD Anderson]

I have created some pretty nasty ubermensches in V&V. My favorite and logical and an NPC Hero was one who could tap into the power of a black hole for Density Control (Size Change weight with no height), Teleportation and Invisibility.

He had Gravity Control and Bionics as well. Ht Int device gave him limited Cosmic Awareness (more like super ranged Ht. Senses) and Willpower (defense or 2x HtH).

Needless to say, he was nasty, Teleporting into a space weighting 10 tons and slamming people around. Invisibly. He never needed to ask where you where, he knew.

What makes V&V so fun AND abusable is that you are to randomly roll for powers, which can have very very nasty combos if you get lucky - say Ht. Intelligence AND Weakness Detection (which gives a to hit bonus based on your Int.)

Its like mixing chemicals. As long as you know sodium should not contact water, you're going to be OK. You forget, and POOOM!

GM: What'd you roll?
Neophyte: Uhm, Non-Corporealness, Psionics, Disintegration Ray, Animal Powers and Regeneration. Also Speed Bonus. What should I discard?
GM (straight-faced): Anything but Speed Bonus. Keep that.

:D

Snowhawk, one of the teammates of a major villain had a devastating attack under V&v.

Her cape was stylized wings not unlike that used by the cartoon show Battle of the Planets. She had cold powers and high speed flight. Her cape was a special weapon.

By freezing it it bacame very hard very thin and thus very sharp.

It hit as a autofire dagger. With velocity and Strength bonuses canceling out the autofire penalties by a lot. ;)

[SD Anderson]

Right now I have to take his word for this. Last sunday evening, one of the people I played with was trying to D20ize the main guy from Full Metal Alchemst and wanted to add Iron Golem to the racial make up to cover the guy's arm.

He stopped and realized he had the formula for an invincible CR 4 monster, at least no character suited for fighting a CR 4 foe had a chance.

1st level Warrior half Iron golem. Free action Breath weapon every few rounds, 25 ST, 25 DR needing +2 or better magic weapons. Which is out of reach for most parties suited to take on one CR 4 foe.


You guys who are the DD experts, is this guy that invincible? I think a first level warriror, even with that cn would not survive magic missiles to well, but... the template may give himsomething against that.

[Origen]

Right now I have to take his word for this. Last sunday evening, one of the people I played with was trying to D20ize the main guy from Full Metal Alchemst and wanted to add Iron Golem to the racial make up to cover the guy's arm.

He stopped and realized he had the formula for an invincible CR 4 monster, at least no character suited for fighting a CR 4 foe had a chance.

1st level Warrior half Iron golem. Free action Breath weapon every few rounds, 25 ST, 25 DR needing +2 or better magic weapons. Which is out of reach for most parties suited to take on one CR 4 foe.

You guys who are the DD experts, is this guy that invincible? I think a first level warriror, even with that cn would not survive magic missiles to well, but... the template may give himsomething against that.

In 3.5 terms, that would be DR 15/adamantine. That template is from the MM2:

http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf

Golems are pretty much immune to magic, and if that effect carried over, he would probably be immune to Magic Missiles, as well.

But a 1st level fighter with that template would also have 1 hit die. All they have to do is damage him at ALL, and he's dead.

[Justice]

In 3.5 terms, that would be DR 15/adamantine. That template is from the MM2:
http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf


You know where everything is, don't you?

*sheesh*

[SilverDragon]

No, that would be Whimsical

Speaking of which, did he make the jump over to the new sites?

[Chris]

As much as I love the Cyberpunk 2013/2020 settings, are there any other character classes that people take than Solo? That is my one problem with the system--everyone wants to be a Solo. While the other classes have good flavor no one takes them. The advantages of being Solo are just too great.
True. Which is why, back in the day when we played CP2020, I came up with a house rule to make taking non-solo classes more of an option. I ditched the exclusivity of class-only skills. Sorta.

A character could take secondary and tertiary class-only skills. Secondary could not exceed half of primary, tertiary half of secondary.

So a tough, veteran street cop could have, say, Authority 6, Combat Reflexes 3 (and maybe 1 point in Streetdeal too, if they wanted).

This allowed most non-solo PCs to have some of that ever-important combat edge as well, while continuing to let solos excel a bit more in it as they should.

Likewise, a bad-ass solo could be a corporate assassin or enforcer for example, taking Combat Reflexes 8, Resources 4. This gives him some clout in the back rooms of the corp and access to the tools of the trade he needs.

You can have a nomadic rocker group touring the wastes, net cops, or any number of other combinations.

Sometimes, depending on the style of the game, or my desire to encourage "cross-classing", I would simply limit ranks in the primary skill. So the PCs would naturally branch out.

Worked well for us, at least.

[Darkrose50]

Third edition Vampire: The Masquerade, and similar White Wolf games have an odd character creation cost verses earned experience cost imbalance. When making a character it is beneficial to assign as many levels, called dots, as you can into something that you want to excel in, and a single dot in anything else. That is to say max something, or place one dot in it. The experience system penalizes you for assigning 2 dots in anything. Either max something, or put a dot into it for later power leveling. After a few games you will have more dots that way.

The odd thing about this setup is that this issue is magnified when taking faction powers . . . you get penalized for taking faction powers higher than 1 dot at character creation . . . go figure. It is actually beneficial to take your faction powers at one dot, and all the non-faction powers as high as you could afford. All powers cost the same at character creation, but faction powers get an experience cost break, so if you max a faction power, then you loose out on the experience break.

I don’t have my books with me (I think raising an attribute is current level x4 experience). Lets take 2 examples with similar builds. There are three physical attributes: Strength, Dexterity, and Stamina, each attribute starts at 1 dot, both builds select physical as my primary, and get 7 dots to sprinkle around. Both builds are going for a strong, tough character.

Build 1, 0XP
Strength 4, Dexterity 1, and Stamina 5

Build 2, 0XP
Strength 3, Dexterity 2, and Stamina 5

It will take 4 experience (a game or two) in order to raise build 1’s Dexterity up to 2 dots, at which point he will be more powerful than build 2. Build 2 can not raise his physical attributes at this point.

It will take 8 more experience, or a total of 12 experience, for build 2 to raise his Strength to 4 dots in order to match the attribute set of build 1. By the time the group gets 12 total experience, build 2 could raise Dexterity again, and the builds could look like this.

Build 1, 12XP
Strength 4, Dexterity 3, and Stamina 5

Build 2, 12XP
Strength 4, Dexterity 2, and Stamina 5

I definitely think that this is a weakness in the system.