Gun Stuff

[Sakutian]

Firearms are featured pretty prominently in most urban fantasy series but there's a great deal of misinoformation about them so I though tit might beusueful to have a thread about them for questions and sharing of general information. It'd be great if we could ask about Harper's firearms experience and her personal equipment from time to time.

I'll just get the ball rolling, does anyone know if guns fire underwater? I've heard both yes and no from different people on this one.

[Baelfyre]

Yes, a gun can physically fire underwater.

No, it's not a good idea.
No, it's not effective.


http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/04/episode_51_myths_reopened.html
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/06/underwater_guns

[Sakutian]

Thanks that's one question out of the way.

Does anyone remember what kind of gunHarper is using by the way? I know it's in the books but I don't have my copies with me right now so I can't check them for the answer.

[BlueNinja]

From what I understand, most guns (modern ones) can be fired underwater, but it's not good on the gun and increases the chance of a misfire.

I think Harper uses a 9mm gun? That seems to be the popular caliber for handguns in urban fantasy.

[Sakutian]

9mm sounds right, seems like it's either that or the good old shotgun for urban fantasy. I'd go with the shotgun. It looks more fun and it's louder in movies. There was this one scene in The Dresden Files where Kincaid just fires off incendiary rounds at these red court vampires, but they warp the barrel so he keeps tossing them away and pulling out another one after each shot. It was cool in that action movie way.

[Harper]

With respect to shooting underwater, a lot depends on the gun in question and the cartridges as to whether the gun will work at all, work only once, or ignore the issue. But regardless, the ballistics of firearms in air don't translate to water very well. They are firearms after all and a chemical reaction that produces a controlled explosion is the basis of how they work. Mix fire with water and you usually just get wet.

As to Harper's gun, it is a specific 9mm semiautomatic pistol which gun nuts will recognize since it has a "cocking lever" and is described as cocking when squeezed and "decocking" when released with a distinct clicking sound. It's an HK P7M13. The artists have never painted the right gun, they tend to go for standard Berettas and Colts. My UK publisher's latest cover features a revolver that looks about .38 caliber. None of these are the right gun.

Here's the actual item:
http://conspiracyx0.tripod.com/weapons2/P7.jpg

The metal piece in front of the grip and behind the trigger loop is the cocking lever. As you exert pressure on it, it cocks the gun and the gun stays cocked so long as you maintain 2lbs of grip pressure. When you let go, it "decocks" the gun, placing a metal bar between the striker and the firing pin so the gun cannot fire. It's damn near foolproof and very safe, also very fast to use, since you don't have to "jack" the slide back to cock the gun and move the first round into the chamber.

[Sakutian]

I like Harper's gun it fits her somehow, it's a shame that it doesn't get featured on the covers. I can't talk though. My guns only ever look like hair dryers and desert eagles. I can draw those pretty weel for some reason.

Random question but can you put a silencer on a 9mm? Or are they not even loud enough for that to be a thought? Sorry I know nothing about guns in the least.

[Strongman]

Yes, you can suppress a 9mm handgun and yes, they are certainly loud enough for it to matter. Best to use subsonic ammunition if you actually want it to be nothing more than the sound of the slide cycling...otherwise you get the supersonic "crack" of the bullet moving through the air which is certainly less noisy but still not to the level of stealthy silence that people think suppressors work at.

[BattleNymph]

As a note, there are some guns designed specifically to fire underwater (like the Russian APS).

[Strongman]

It's damn near foolproof and very safe, also very fast to use, since you don't have to "jack" the slide back to cock the gun and move the first round into the chamber.

I guess I qualify as a "gun nut"...

To clarify, a P7's slide does need to be cycled to chamber a round, like all semi-auto pistol designs.

Also, when de-cocking, you can manipulate the gun in such a manner as to de-cock it quietly, without the (rather loud) noise that it makes when you do it normally.

[Harper]

You'll only have to cycle the slide if the slide is not already locked back. Generally I leave the breach open once the mag is exhausted and just squeeze the lever once the new mag is in place. I'm lazy. I only cycle the slide on that puppy when I'm checking it, or when it's been in storage.

I am also a gun nut (I used the phrase for ease, not because I actually think any of us are nuts. I like firearms, but I respect them.) I'm amused by the stories of P7s decocking being "mistaken" for a dry/misfire. The sounds are completely different to my ears, and I have had plenty of luck with reducing the volume of the "click" on release by just letting go a little more gradually. It's not that loud really. Did I say it was? I apologize. It's a distinctive sound, but unless you're really in a hurry it's not horrendously loud. (Mines an M8, just to be clear--the M13 was a bit out of my price range, even used.)

[Harper]

And don't get me started on those movie "silencers" that are the side of a roll of quarters....

The unfortunate thing about guns in Western Society is that they've become fetishized to the degree that they are almost magical in some people's minds--they seem to believe that just having a gun makes them The Man (or Evil depending on your political bent), and that they are easy to use when turned sideways, and that Glocks are made of porcelain, etc.... Most people who've never handled one believe what they see on TV and in the movies, which are usually wildly inaccurate. I really try to keep my descriptions of gun handling accurate. I've had to cut the concussive effects and deafness issues down a bit to satisfy plot necessities, but I'm still wrestling with those issues and making an effort to do this stuff right in print. Few people notice but it's worth trying.

My husband would kick my ass if I didn't.

[Sakutian]

I don't know much about guns but I don't think wonign one makes you a man or evil. They get a lot of bad press in my book. They're just a tool and are only as good or bad as the person holding them. That said I try not to believe too much of what I see in fiction unless I know it's making an effort to be realistic, like in Greywalker for example.

[Strongman]

You'll only have to cycle the slide if the slide is not already locked back. Generally I leave the breach open once the mag is exhausted and just squeeze the lever once the new mag is in place. I'm lazy. I only cycle the slide on that puppy when I'm checking it, or when it's been in storage.

I am also a gun nut (I used the phrase for ease, not because I actually think any of us are nuts. I like firearms, but I respect them.) I'm amused by the stories of P7s decocking being "mistaken" for a dry/misfire. The sounds are completely different to my ears, and I have had plenty of luck with reducing the volume of the "click" on release by just letting go a little more gradually. It's not that loud really. Did I say it was? I apologize. It's a distinctive sound, but unless you're really in a hurry it's not horrendously loud. (Mines an M8, just to be clear--the M13 was a bit out of my price range, even used.)

I'd rather use an M8 because of size...I have small hands relative to my size.

If you reach a finger up into the area between the bottom rear of the trigger guard and the cocking lever (when it's cocked), you can press in and hold as you release the cocking lever and there will be no "click" as it decocks.

[Strongman]

They're just a tool and are only as good or bad as the person holding them.

Yup...although the following concern rifles specifically, they can encompass firearms in general:

"The rifle is a weapon. Let there be no mistake about that. It is a tool of power, and thus dependent completely upon the moral stature of its user. It is equally useful in securing meat for the table, destroying group enemies on the battlefield, and resisting tyranny. In fact, it is the only means of resisting tyranny, since a citizenry armed with rifles simply cannot be tyrannized."

"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

[Baelfyre]

A gun is a tool like any other, given moral weight solely by the person that uses it.

[Kalzazz]

Ive known computers and cars which were clearly evil aligned, I wouldnt be to surprised to meet an evil gun

And printers as a rule are the hands of darkness

[Baelfyre]

Ok, I'll give you Lexmark printers as evil.

[Sakutian]

Printers are evil and I've yet to meet one I like.

[Harper]

I'd rather use an M8 because of size...I have small hands relative to my size.

If you reach a finger up into the area between the bottom rear of the trigger guard and the cocking lever (when it's cocked), you can press in and hold as you release the cocking lever and there will be no "click" as it decocks.

Cool. That's a trick I'd never heard. Thanks.

I find both guns easy enough to hold but the geometry is definitely different on the M13, but with the narrowing at the top it's not too big for my small thumb web to accomodate--which is a problem with a lot of double-column autos. Harper got the bigger gun because she has massive paw-like hands.

[Sakutian]

How many rounds does Harper's gun carry anyway?

[Harper]

The magazine in her version is 13 rounds.

[Sakutian]

Wow good thing Harper isn't superstitious I guess.

[Harper]

Or maybe it is.... ;)

[AnotherSKip]

nope not here....

darn.

[Sakutian]

This might be a silly question but can extreme cold cause a gun to not fire?

[Mouser]

This might be a silly question but can extreme cold cause a gun to not fire?

That depends upon what you mean by "extreme cold."

My wife is from California, and she thinks "extreme cold" is any temperature under 70 degrees.

[Sakutian]

Haha no I was thinking something in the -20s or lower.

[Strongman]

Haha no I was thinking something in the -20s or lower.

It's possible. Unlikely but possible.

[Mouser]

Haha no I was thinking something in the -20s or lower.

Just like using a car, I would recommend using a lubricant that is rated for those temperatures.

On the other hand, after a few rounds, the barrel will be warm to the touch.

At any rate, the decent handguns (Glock, H&K, Sig-Sauer) are all rated for those temps. In fact, they're rated to be frozen in a block of ice, chipped out and then immediately fired.

I've seen stress tests of Sigs being dragged behind cars, dropped from heights, run over, and then successfully fired.

I've only heard of what they do to Glocks, but it's similar.

H&K invented the stress tests for their H&K 91? rifle.