Monster phsyics

[Sakutian]

Just thought we could use a thread for bouncing ideas around the monster physics pertaining to the Greywalker novels.

I've been thinking about Underground and Quinton's explanation of why Werewolves don't exist for a while now. In fact it stuck in the back of my mind ever since I read it.

"All right. Everything I've seen tells me that magic tends to respect the laws of physics-kind of freaky physics, but lawful physics For total form-shifting to happen in less than, say, a couple of days, max, it would have to break conservation of mass, conservation of energy, and the laws of thermodynamics at the very least. If shape-shifting does exists then it's an illusion, not an actual form change-unless it happens very slowly, which doesn't seem to be the case. If someone were to change from human to wolf, he'd have to make a whole lot of physical changes very rapidly, shedding or gaining mass and using up a ton of energy. There just isn't enough elasticity in the system to allow it-he'd burst into flames from the heat of the energetic change alone"(Richardson, 133).

Now I don't have Quinton's science whiz credentials but I do notice two loop holes in his explanation. First off the fast change of a man to a wolf or any other were creature is out of the question by these rules. Fine.

What about a pupal stage? A caterpillar doesn't turn into a butterfly in six seconds, it cocoons itself and slowly changes over a set period. Without bursting into flames. Let's adapt that to something bigger now, say a wolf to a man or vice verse. The image of an ooze dripping, green, slightly luminescent, man sized cocoon with a snarling wolf in front of it hidden in some dark underground corner is pretty striking.

Even sans cocoon if one were willing to put up with days of slow extremely painful changes could it work? Maybe I don't know. I'm not a physicist or a wizard. Would it be practical? Hell no. Fact is turning into a wolf would come in handy but the preparation involved in changing to and back from one would make it a nightmare, and not even a terribly effective one.

So big changes are out for most cases, but what about little ones? Would physics allow one to sprout claws, fangs, or a few extra muscles without exploding? The added bonus to these changes given my understanding is it could be done relatively quickly.

Sorry I know that was all rather long but the theory has been eating at me for a long time now. Plus I just like finding ways around the rules from tiem to time and surprising people.

[BlueNinja]

One of the early Dresden books mentioned several different kinds of werewolves - full conversions, limited conversions, demonic power loan, aspect-borrowing, and I think there was one other I'm forgetting. The kind of "werewolf" who just gains some of the habits and abilities of a wolf would be easy to do in the Greywalker world. The others would only be a little more problematic. I mean, if you have a vampire, who can stay alive forever without needing to eat or breathe, why couldn't you have something twisty that allowed for a transformation? It might not be the human to werewolf in 0.4 seconds type, but one that took an hour (or three) might not be out of the question - Quinton doesn't know everything that's out there, as much as he acts like it on occasion. ;)

[Harper]

Oh this is fantastic! I'm loving this. And yes, you can't count on any character being right about this issue--or telling the truth. Quinton's not even right during the course of Underground, since the Sisiutl then goes and ignores some of his "rules."

Hmm... I'll have to think about that pupation idea... that's nifty!

[Sakutian]

Glad you liked the pupation idea I thought it was pretty nifty as well.

Quniton's going to be attacked by a shape shifter at some point, I just know it. His lack of belief in them is like werenip, they'll nuzzle him and then use him like a cat toy.

[nerdgirl]

Haha, werenip, thats awesome!
I'm glad to see that I wasn't the only one bugged by Quintons logic on this matter. When I read that section I was actually frowning at my book, waiting for another character to argue the point!

[Thing One]

Well, what Quinton ignored was the fact that there
are indeed wolf/human creatures in Native tales,
and Underground proved that belief can cause things to be real.
So, having said that, there could be fairies, wolf / Grendel like beings,
giants, Skinwalkers - that would be evil witches that wear the skin and change
into the animal - well just about anything.

I have seen a ghost for myself, so the Grey has held a lot of meaning to me. I love
how Harper deals with ghosts.

But if there are ghosts and First Nations creatures, then why not Odins Ravens and other stuff?

Belief = being = energy = existance in some form

What if Harper can walk between dimensions? Couldn't there be one with creatures
of myth - even Elves?

I'm not saying I hope that this happens. I am just saying that Quinton of all people needs to have a more open mind.

[Sakutian]

This is a bit random but I'm sort of haoping Harper will come across a gillman sort of monster at some point, you know something like the creature from the black lagoon . They're just cool and kind of easy to deal with. Just shoot the things and they drop like a balloon in an alaskan winter. I'm pretty sure Harper would appreciate an easy to kill enemy for a change.

The idea of Harper traveling to other dimensions is really interesting, she can already sort of travel back through time so it'd be neat to see that explored even further. Dinosaur ghosts haha.

[Harper]

One of the difficult things with this sort of series is establishing rules and sticking to them so the characters don't become superheroes who can do anything and never take a scratch. I'm not entirely sure of all the limits and exceptions but there are some pretty strict rules and I stick with them. The characters make mistakes and are wrong quite frequently, but I don't have that luxury: smart readers like you guys will come along and point to the book and say "Hey, you messed up right here!" and I would have to say "oh... yes. You're right." And I so hate to be wrong... ;) (Not that I haven't been....)

Vanished has some special cases for limitations to the system so that Harper will never become a superhero or an all-powerful whatsit. She'd be impossible to live with if I didn't put limits on her. And of course, the books would be boring if there were no challenges or dangers.

I do have to state definitively that Quinton is not and never will be a werewolf. Because I don't want Harper to turn into the sort of heroine who shags anything with fangs.

[Sakutian]

I'm glad Quinton isn't a werewolf he'd be boring if he was, it'd be obvious sort of. Besides he's like a spy so that's more than enough oddness for him.

[BlueNinja]

Because I don't want Harper to turn into the sort of heroine who shags anything with fangs. Oh thank God. :grin:

[Sakutian]

I was wondering something about Sisuitl from Underground earlier and I was hoping to get other peopl'es theories. Alright so the creature essentially appears to each person as what they expect it to be correct? Expect a giant se serpetn and that's what you see, expect something else and the same applies.Here's my question. How does it know what to appear as? I mean is it just magic reflex? Or does the creature have some sort of telepathy so it can read your mind and know how you're interpreting it?

[Sakutian]

I know Harper doesn't count as a monster herself but my question abotu her fits in with them for the moment. I was wondering how being a Greywalker will effect Harper after she goes to the big detective agency in the sky? I mean will it make her a more intelligent aware ghost or something else all together? I'm operating under the idea that she'll remain Harper pretty much entirely only a ghost, not one of the aimless, unaware, endlessly looping ghosts she'se seen so often.

[BlueNinja]

Yanno, I thought about this while driving home. Traditionally, aren't there methods to "cure" lycanthropy? There's no reason why Quinton couldn't become a werewolf, and then Harper has to cure him before she can come near him again.

[Sakutian]

Oh good point, isn't the only cure usually to kill the werewolf who bit you though? Then in some cases eating the heart of said werewolf as well. Any other lycanthropy cures come to mind?

[Harper]

book 4....

[Harper]

Harper does occasionally consider herself a monster. Sometimes the monsters even tell her she is one. A lot depends on what you think a monster is. And one constant in the premise is that there are no absolute avatars of Good and Evil, only what we, the humans, make. So... we're the monsters.

[Sakutian]

That's a really interesting take on it, I could easily see Harper being the sort of person who would view herself in the negative or as one of the monsters I suppose. Maybe it's the knoweldge that we're the monsters and the choice of what we do with that bit of knowledge that decides what sort of monster we become in the end? Sorry if that doesn't make any sort of sense.

Oh and Harper should never trust the monsters. Ever. They lie like rugs.

[Thing One]

This is very interesting (Oh thank gods Quinton isn't a furry)
Harper is the way she is because she died. So what would happen if she dies again?
I don't see her being a ghost. But if she thinks she is a monster then:
belief = power = reality - so she may end up being one of the massively powerful Grey monsters. I mean, where did they come from anyway? She is obviously a power now in the Grey, so why not remain so after death?

But right now, she is just what the series calls her: A walker in the Grey. I don't see her as being all powerful. But I do see her getting better at dealing with the Grey, and finding new layers in the Grey.

I didn't know that Harper thought she was a monster. Does she believe in any sort of religrion? Is she atheist or agnostic? I mean, we don't see her trying to make crosses out of pieces of wood when she is around the vamps. So, her personaly belief system would be powerful.

In Poltergeist I think that Harper, when she is tearing the construct apart, is monsterous. She tend to be a destroyer in the Grey. And if she is constantly seeing humans and others in the Grey, then why would she believe in Heaven or a Hell? The Grey seems like both.

So would Harper try to stay alive, so that she WOULDN'T end up as something unknown in the Grey? That would give her the power of conviction, of the "Hell no I won't go" sort.

(Kat, she isn't going to see a Werewolf in London is she? :) ) That would be hilarious.

And geniuses are plently powerful people - they are like superheroes. I live with two of them, and it is amazing to watch them just know or understand things in less the a second. I never kid when I tell people my husband could teach himself how to do brain surgery out of a book. And Quinton does hand out in the Library a lot :)

I think that Mara and her knowledge is an important person in thie Grey world - I mean she is a good witch. What would have happened with Harper if she had met a BAD witch first?

My theory, which is much like flying monkey coming out of my ears, is that Harper will face magic in England that is very different than anything she has seen here in Seattle. Can I just say it would be really scary if Harper started to drink a lot - OMG that would be baaaaad.

[Harper]

Oh the drinking! That's something I did not adopt from the hardboiled tradition--the hard-drinking PI. I considered it, but I don't want her to be that dysfunctional. And J.A. Konrath beat me to the best AA-meets monsters story in Wolfsbane and Mistletoe, so I guess I'll skip that.

I haven't had a chance to deal with really bad witches yet, but they'll probably show up. I try to plan the books about 2 years in advance now, but things often change as drafts change and that effects the whole long-range story. I don't want to put all the cool stuff in just one book.

[Sakutian]

Maybe it's just me but I haven't really missed bad witches in the books up to this point, I realize they're sort of the stand by villains for fantasy books but that's part of the problem with them. They're expected it's almost required to put them in a series at one point or another, but to me it's more interesting to see something new or different make an appearance. Native american legends and ghosts are two of the things I've really liked for Greywalker, I realize ghosts are pretty old too but the ones for Harper's stories are the best. They've been really interesting up to now.

All that aside more zombies crossing Harper's path would be fantastic.

[Harper]

Oh-ho-ho... you're going to love book 6....

Muahahahaha...:sasmokin:

[Sakutian]

*Covers eyes* I can't think about that now because I'm having trouble just filling the months until Vanished comes out.

Drat now I'm curious. I wonder if any of the current characters are going to end up zombies? Oh my gosh, zombie ferrets! So will Harper be uprgrading her gun in the future for dealing with those kinds of targets?

This might be stupid but I was thinking about Norse mythology, I'm a mythology nerd sue me, and what could slide in Harper's world in a way that might move the story whiel actually working. Not just "Oh look Thor's here now, that's cool." I came up with one idea. Harper dealing with a valkyrie would be pretty cool and very interesting to me, not sure exactly how itd work but I have ideas. Ideas which would have most people posting in the favorite character thread chasing me with torches and pitchforks so I'll keep them to myself.

[Thing One]

Well, what about Hel, the Norweigen goddess of Death?
She is half skeleton and half human. She functions as the gateway from life to death.
To me, that makes her a total Greywalker.

It is beings like Hel that I think will be wandering around strong as hell in the Grey.

And we know that there are Necromancers - obviously. So of course there are undead and zombies.

But I just think that there must be families of witches - I bet Mara is from one - Irish isn't she? So why wouldn't there by all powerful families (like corporations) of witches, male and female, who can give Harper hellish times in the Grey....

Oh, thank goodness, I am glad Harper isn't going to go the path that ends in AA meetings. I think drugs and the Grey - BAAADDDD

[Sakutian]

Hel would be a fantastic addition and I think she'd make an especially scary one too. How about Sobek too? Scary alligator dog monster that eats the hearts of wicked people? Imagine a terrified ghost running down the street being chased by that, screaming for help, but of course no one ever sees or hears them because they're ghosts. Until one crosses paths with Harper that is.

[Sakutian]

This might be a stupid question but I'm wondering if all vampires can manipulate the grey or is it something that only a few of them learn to do over time?

[Harper]

Actually, most of them don't do much with the Grey at all. You may have noticed in Greywalker that they don't even think of it, until Harper comes up with the idea. I've got something coming up that's a little different in that regard, but it's not universal to all vampires.

[Sakutian]

Neat! I'd assumed that their invisiblity thing was sort of grey maniuplating like Harper can do but yeah I was just curious. Grr it's getting harder and harder to wait for Vanished cause I keep finidng out more fun things that will be in it.

[AnotherSKip]

and Underground proved that belief can cause things to be real.

then thefore couldn't dis-belief cause things to become not-real?

And trying to get disbelief a rolling could be the point of his statement?

[Sakutian]

...Quinton is a werewolf and he's trying to cure himself over time with disbelief! I knew it!

[BlueNinja]

then thefore couldn't dis-belief cause things to become not-real? Gives new meaning to the gaming joke, "I disbelieve the illusion!"

Simon R. Green put a character like that in the Nightside. Someone who doesn't believe in anything, and if she disbelieves hard enough, it ceases to exist.

[Sakutian]

I'm kind of curious about Harper's ability to "ghost" through objects at the moment. What I'm wondering is this, is there anything that she can't pass through or that passing through would do her physical harm? Maybe a metal with magicla properties like silver, or mirrors? Just a thought. I figure there must be something that is greywalker proof and that can hurt them ormore importantly Harper.

[Sakutian]

It'd be really interesting to see more native american monster's/gods/mythical beings brought into Harper's story. I don't know if it was a one time experiment or not but it worked and it's really unique to her. That said trickster gods are among my favorite beings in any pantheon so why not give one of them a turn? The though of a virtually all powerful being screwing with Harper's head for some reason is pretty funny. I know there's Coyote and Raven but I'm not sure if they would apply to any of the tribes in the Washington area.

[Harper]

Raven is very much a part of the northwest native culture. He has interesting friends, too, like Salmon and Blue Jay and Otter, but I'm reluctant to repeat myself and I'm not an expert on native myths, so I'll probably let it go for a while and get back to it in a few books.

I had to work hard to get out from under the "vampire writer" label, so I'm reluctant to get another label so soon.

[Sakutian]

That's a good point, wouldn't want you to be hindered by some label. That's never any fun.

[Alchemist]

Sweet topic. I'm with everyone else that if vampires can 'exist', as well as other supernatural (extranatural?) then werewolves can exist and be feasible.

Taking the Grey look on things, and noting how Harper get's dim when in the Grey, I could see werewolves having two 'phases'. A human phase, that is what they would present normally, and a Grey wolf phase that exists at all times but simply is invisible while in the Grey. In much the same way Harper goes into the Grey, a were's human form could go into the Grey and disappear, and have the Wolf phase come out of the Grey and become visible. Instant transformation - no breaking of the laws of conservation of mass. It would not be an illusion so much as a Grey trading of places.

Another option might be a long biological change (infection period) time, maybe a month? where new muscle and bone structures form that allow both human and animal form to be possible. Claws retract. If we are talking theory here, why not bones and muscle that only appear to lengthen or shorten but in reality are simply shifting position to form a new external appearance. Granted, hair might be tricky, but....

I like the first explanation best, and I am sure Kat has her own ideas, but I like it's elegance into this mythos.

[Hagelrat]

I think the thing that might mesh best with the Grey, given the reasons Kat gave for not going in for were's would be to use the mythology about cults who worshipped wolves. There were plenty of legends of cults of lycanthropes who no one really believed changed shape, but who took on certain characteristics, and like the Vamps in Greywalker, they were totally unapologetic about how vicious and bloody they were. They could easily have lengthened teeth and claws and heightened senses without shape shifting.

[Alchemist]

I think the thing that might mesh best with the Grey, given the reasons Kat gave for not going in for were's would be to use the mythology about cults who worshipped wolves. There were plenty of legends of cults of lycanthropes who no one really believed changed shape, but who took on certain characteristics, and like the Vamps in Greywalker, they were totally unapologetic about how vicious and bloody they were. They could easily have lengthened teeth and claws and heightened senses without shape shifting.

New here. When/where did Kat give reasons for not going in for weres?

[Harper]

I mentioned it a few times, but there's also Quinton's discussion of physics.

However: That's a fantastic idea, Alchemist. I like that aspect swapping idea a lot. I'll have to think a bit on how well it works with the system I have in place, but... heck, that could make me change my mind about the viability of shapeshifters.

By the way... we haven't met in another forum before... have we?

[Alchemist]

I mentioned it a few times, but there's also Quinton's discussion of physics.

However: That's a fantastic idea, Alchemist. I like that aspect swapping idea a lot. I'll have to think a bit on how well it works with the system I have in place, but... heck, that could make me change my mind about the viability of shapeshifters.

By the way... we haven't met in another forum before... have we?

Have we met? Not that I am aware of, but anything is possible. No other literature sites but I am on other topic forums. It's the handle I use most often in a variety of forums so if you know or have seen another Alchemist, there is a better than naught chance it is me. And I am in the PNW. Just for a subtle (NOT) shameless plug, I am the alchemist behind Chocolate Alchemy (google is your friend).

I am really glad you like the idea. I am a scientist by trade (chemist) and think very much like Quinton is portrayed and had come to many of the same conclusions. But I am too huge of a Were fan to not try and come up with something practical given a set of rules. That would rock if it made you re-evaluate your shapeshifter stance. :dazed052:

And I wasn't going to read Quinton's stance on shapeshifting as your stance on the subject. I have known too many authors where there stance on a subject bares no resemblance to their character's. You know what assuming does...

Thanks for reading and answering.

[Harper]

I appreciate that, Alchemist. A lot of people assume a central character's position on a subject is the author's. In this case it's a statement of how the physics works so far as I/they can tell. Once I'd set up that set of rules, I couldn't see how shapeshifters would fit. But... that is a heck of an explanation you have there. Hmmm...

Nope, looks like we have not, in fact, met before. You just remind me of someone and that's not bad.

[Alchemist]

I appreciate that, Alchemist. A lot of people assume a central character's position on a subject is the author's. In this case it's a statement of how the physics works so far as I/they can tell. Once I'd set up that set of rules, I couldn't see how shapeshifters would fit. But... that is a heck of an explanation you have there. Hmmm...

Nope, looks like we have not, in fact, met before. You just remind me of someone and that's not bad.

Well, all of that is good.

I figure if you decide to roll this idea around, you might come up with some of this, but I thought I would toss it around. Using the mundane/grey dual body idea, it seems it would fit just perfect to allow and explain full moon shifting. Just a variant of the control or sometimes lack of control Harper displayed in Greywalker. Where sometimes she could not get into the grey or then back out easily. Same deal. During a full moon, a werewolf could not keep the wolf form in the grey and the human form out. Classic forced shifting. Following that thought, although not backed up by any current mythos, could be an interesting Achilles's heel not to be able to shift at all during the new moon. Let willful control of greyshifting be lunar based.

If the idea works for you, great. If not, well, it is fun just talking about it.

But as others have said, I would vote against Quinton being a werewolf. Feels too predictable. Now, Brian (aka Rhino-boy)...wolf-boy? :mischievous: that could be interesting dynamic....

[ImzadiDragonfly]

Well, all of that is good.

But as others have said, I would vote against Quinton being a werewolf. Feels too predictable. Now, Brian (aka Rhino-boy)...wolf-boy? :mischievous: that could be interesting dynamic....

Are you sure he wasn't named Rhino-boy because somewhere deep down his parents knew he really was a were-rhino?

No?

[BlueNinja]

A were-rhino is a species I haven't seen anywhere, not even in Anita Blake!

Of course, he'd make an awfully small rhino ...

[Alchemist]

A were-rhino is a species I haven't seen anywhere, not even in Anita Blake!

Of course, he'd make an awfully small rhino ...

Of course. Just like a 3 year old werewolf would only be a pup. But he'd make a damn cute rhino calf though.

And maybe it is Brian that knows something, not Mara and Ben (except presumably he hasn't changed yet). Maybe compulsory shifting doesn't happen until puberty (ala teen wolf).

[Harper]

I think the emphasis there should be on "awful"... ;) Brian is a handful. He's partially based on my own little brother who really did run full-tilt and head-first into people's legs from the time he was two until he was four. He's pretty smart and still stubborn as a rhino to this day (he's 31 now) but a lot more sociable and less likely to ram you. Of course, he's also 6' 2" and has a Master's degree in American poetry and literature, which we never expected. We thought he'd join a rock band and beat his guitars into pulp every night. Maybe the fact that he can't carry a tune had something to do with that....

[Sakutian]

That doesn't seem tot stop most musicians these days.

[ImzadiDragonfly]

Granted I was jesting about Brian being a were-rhino but I see no reason there can't be a were-creature for ever critter out there. Maybe we have to stick with mammals though. Eh, maybe not.

[Sakutian]

Were platypus...just putting it out there. Weirdest were ever plus it fits the mammal rule. There were weresnakes in Anita Blake though.

[ImzadiDragonfly]

There's a short story in that one my dear. Run with it.

[Sakutian]

Haha you know there is a story there and it's already taking shape but it rings of one of my very bad ideas that I get very excited about after their inception. Who would take it seriously? Well besides me I guess.

[Harper]

Have you seen J.A. Konrath's short story "S.A." in Wolfsbane and Mistletoe? It includes a were-squirrel and a were-coral among others. It's really sick and funny.

[ImzadiDragonfly]

I bought Wolfsbane and Mistletoe the day it came out and still haven't read it yet. That does sound funny.

But the were-platypus is just begging for a venue. Who wants to morph into a reclusive, partially blind, mammal with a duck bill?

[AnotherSKip]

Uh, they are poisonous.

and really alot of CAW (Characters As Written) don't get a choice as to whether or not they are Shape shifters it generally gets forced upon them (much like most non-RPG Cyborgs).

[ImzadiDragonfly]

Uh, they are poisonous.

and really alot of CAW (Characters As Written) don't get a choice as to whether or not they are Shape shifters it generally gets forced upon them (much like most non-RPG Cyborgs).


I'd forgotten they are poisonous.

No, in my limited knowledge of Were history I don't know of any who had the choice to pick their animal. Still doesn't mean my first instinct is to want to a were-platypus when I grow up. :D

[Sakutian]

Have you seen J.A. Konrath's short story "S.A." in Wolfsbane and Mistletoe? It includes a were-squirrel and a were-coral among others. It's really sick and funny.


Nope I haven't gotten Wolfsbane and Misletoe so I didn't get to read any of the stories. What the heck is a coral?

[Harper]

Coral. You know: that colony animal that lives in the sea and creates reefs and stuff with it's calcified exoskeletal remains?
http://www.chbr.noaa.gov/categories/raim/images/coral_01.jpg

[Sakutian]

[QUOTE=Harper;262703]Coral. You know: that colony animal that lives in the sea and creates reefs and stuff with it's calcified exoskeletal remains?
QUOTE]

Oh! Wow I feel stupid now that's the only coral I knew of and I thought it must be some other coral if it was going to be were. Wow that's a random choice. Look out it's growing! Isn't that stuff pretty frgaile though? Haha poor monster that's made of that stuff.

[Harper]

I kind of had the same reaction when I read the story.

"were-coral? WTF?"

[Sakutian]

That's why you should never go suba diving or snorkeling near coral during a fool moon. The werecoral will getcha!

[Sakutian]

So we watched Blade Trinity and The Monster Squad during classes yeterday at the sparked off a couple of debates about vampires and how they can be killed. Up till now there haven't really been any vampire killings in Gryewalker so I'm wondering how hard it is to put one of them down for good and how such a thing could be accomplished. They can obviously strave to death eventually if they don't feed since we've seen one case of that, I'm thinking ripping them to pieces would be the only other way.

[Harper]

Well... there was the little issue of a certain building burning down in Greywalker....

More on the vampire killin' in books 4&5.

[Sakutian]

Oh yeah fire! Well that makes sense I mean most magic seems to suggest fire is a cleasning or neautralizing factor so it would mess with the grey in the area I bet. Pus it obviously destroyes the body totally. Thanks for answering.

Curse book 4 it just gets everything! Haha.

[Harper]

Book 4 is the penultimate book of the original arc so yeah, there's a lot going on there that will come to bear in Book 5. Couple new monsters, some problems, solutions, techniques, and ramifications. And a few puzzles.

However, I am under contract through Book 6, so even though the arc ends at 5, the series won't. There's still a lot of room for new Monster Physics so long as the publisher thinks there is a market for more books after that.

[Sakutian]

So any plans beyond book 6 if the publishers are willing?

[Harper]

Not yet. I have stuff cooking for Books 5 & 6 but I haven't put much thought into what might go if there's a book 7 or more. A lot of other things gobble my brain between books.

I do want to find some less familiar monsters and I'd like to get some bad witches and magic-users into the mix as well as a lot more ghosts. Maybe a bit of voodoo...

Every once in a while I toy with doing a story about Harper but from someone else's perspective and if there's a chance I might do that, but its a very long shot.

And fishmen. Not Lovecraftian horrors, but fishy nonetheless.

[Sakutian]

*Squeal of joy* Fishmen! That all sounds really great though, I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that everything aligns to let you write the Greywalker books for as long as you want to.

[Sakutian]

You know something I've always wondered about in regards to vampires, what happens to the blood they drink? I mean do they break it down into nutrients in theird digestive tract, does it slip into their bloodstream to replace their own, or do they have some sort of special organ that deals with it? Anyone have a theory?

The obvious one would probably be that they digest it but that seems too simple.

[Sakutian]

I'm going to shoot out my vampire theory since nobody else fired one off. I think when you becmome a vampire your digestive system shuts down totally and the bloodgets absorbed through the linining of your sotmach and espohpagus into the bloodstream where it then makes it's way to your heart which conitunally breaks down the blood. I have no idea how vampires in Greywalker work though, I'm sure it's something much simpler and more elegant. Haha I'm probably over thinking the whole thing, but then like taking things apart and seeing how they work from time to time.

[BlueNinja]

Actually, I think dead blood cells get removed by the kidney.

[Sakutian]

Really? Maybe vampires shoudl be more worried about their kidneys then.

[Sakutian]

Continuing the vampire organ line of questioning, this is something that's always bothered me. TOns of fictional vampires drink, many of them heavily *Looks at Preacher * but since their boides don't work quite like ours that leave sme with a question. Can they suffer liver damage or failure? It may not be as big a concern for people since we don't always live to a ripe old age but if you need your liver and are seemingly immortal it'd kind of stink to have it go up on you.

[BlueNinja]

I think it depends on the series. Some of them, vampires can drink but not eat solid food; some vampires can't eat or drink anything but blood; some vampries can eat and drink regularly but they only get nutrition from blood. So I think you have to take that on a case-by-case basis.

[Sakutian]

Do vampires go to the bathroom? If so that could be severly disutrbing the first couple of times.

[BlueNinja]

That's one of those things that's never covered in fiction.

[Harper]

I think Wm. Mark Simmons covered some of it in One Foot in the Grave.

[Sakutian]

See that's what I love about that stuff, nobody knows so you can turn fiction on it's ear by covering it.

[AnotherSKip]

Heh fish men.

how about non-cthuluian squid guys?


like here


http://vanguardhq.blogspot.com/search/label/character%20sheets

:)

[Sakutian]

Fish men rule especially the noncthulu ones. Sorry but the squid faces just don't work for me.

[Sakutian]

How does vampire hypnosis work anyway? Is it just pheromones? But if pheromones are secreted through sweat and vampires don't sweat would they even have any pheromones to begin with? These are the sort of thoughts that keep me up at night.

[Akuma]

Sorry to bud into this thread, but i have been reading it for a while and this last question seems reasonable. Remember that Vampires in the Greywalker series can bend the grey with out even knowing it, so a form of mind control shouldnt be through their glands or pheramones but wrather from bending their spirits will. That's just my take haha

[ImzadiDragonfly]

That makes sense, Akuma.

[Akuma]

Thanks lol. so any more monster physics' theories? I mean, think of what length the Guardians of the grey can protect their plane of existence? If they harm Harper then what could they do with someone like a necromancer? The guardians are not dead technically, just beings from the other side. Unless that is wrong? Help me out Harper lol

[Harper]

Oh but I can't tell you that right now... Book 5 is in the works and the secrets of the Guardians, as well as a lot of vampire info will be the core of that book. But what I will say is that some Grey things aren't quite dead and some are... well... kind of alive and thinking--a lot.

[Akuma]

thanks lol now i am too curious lmao.... cant wait for it!!!!!!!

[Anthraxus]

I was going to post a similar idea to Alchemist's, although I was just thinking of shunting the mass exchange into the Grey, as opposed to having a complete swap out. I agree that his idea is better and quite evocative in the thought of how a Grey "native" entity would be able to interact with the Grey side of the Were.

[TheDuckmanCometh]

Can't wait to find out more about exactly WHAT the Guardian of the Grey actually is...

Okay, I'd like to address several topics discussed here in previous posts:

Time travel: to my recollection, Harper never actually travelled back in time, only sifted through shadowy imprints of history left in the Grey. She didn't actually step back out of the Grey into the time period in question (otherwise, in this last book she would have gotten a lot more details out of the secretary she questioned, but she was only talking to a ghost, not the real person from the past)

Werewolves: There is a way around a lot of Quinton’s reasons for why werewolves can’t exist. If you assume that there is indeed some supernatural component to the monsters in Harper’s universe, rather than a viral infection or something that makes you a vampire, wererhino or whatever, then these are beings that sort of straddle the line between the everyday world and the Grey, but in a different way from how Harper does it. Harper crosses between the two but is usually pretty definitely within one or the other, while vampires and our supposed werewolves have parts of themselves on either side simultaneously, all the time. This partial existence in the Grey may explain a vampire’s ability to manipulate it better than someone like Harper, because part of them lives there or even originates there (the bite of a vampire, perhaps, allowing that portion of the Grey to invade the victim or something… somehow, they’ve basically got a foot firmly on each side of the line). In a similar, less controllable way, a werewolf might therefore also straddle that line, and the energy required to rapidly transform a human into a wolf, either fully or into a hulking lycan, comes from the Grey itself. The process would be excruciatingly painful, which might drive the werewolf mad with the pain and shock, and the waste heat might be shared between the physical body and the entity that exists in the Grey, acting almost like a metaphysical heat sink, keeping the physical body from simply bursting into flames. Either that, or the entity that lives in the Grey is actually the werewolf half itself, and the "transformation" is really the Grey entity swapping places with the human in our world. There wouldn't be a huge energy transfer, just a revolving door.

Harper the destroyer: I don’t really think of Harper as a monster, except in her capacity as a destroyer of all things Grey. In the same way a lumbering brute like an ogre or giant might be considered a monster by those whose home was destroyed or whose family was stepped upon by a clumsy oaf who didn’t look where he was going or sat down on something it shouldn’t have, Harper’s relative inexperience with dealing with Grey matters and the dead leads her to handle things with slightly less finesse than, say, certain vampires of her acquaintance, whose affinity for the Grey plus a couple hundred extra years of practice give them a leg up on her. She dismantled that one dead guy with filaments of Grey tangled in him as an act of kindness – the fact that she was witnessed by someone who wasn't prepared to see it made her feel monstrous, but she doesn't go and do evil things with her ability, and is not a destructive force without reason, so I can't really lump her in with the rest of the monsters. She's just different.

Bad witches: Well, why not? Only thing is that the only witch we know is Mara, and it almost seems that in the Greywalker universe, witches are actually kind of rare, so the chances that a witch like Mara and a black arts practitioner living in the same city are pretty remote. To have a whole coven of them to cause trouble would be even less likely, unless they gathered for some event (Cauldron-con? Actually, I kind of like that… a whole convention for the black arts at the SeaTac Best Western)

Norse gods: Nah, I don’t think gods or ultra-powerful beings should come into play; Harper would either have to become a lot more powerful herself, or she’d have to outsmart a god somehow, and that just seems a little too tricky to bother with. However, the various mythologies of the world have a lot of lower-level monsters to play with without having to lean too heavily on the tried-and-true standby’s of vampires, werewolves, mummies, etc. Since Edward’s old associates from Europe have been causing him problems, if the current story arc has potential to extend beyond Labyrinth, you could have some of those old associates show up in Seattle to pay him a visit and bring some Old World monsters along as muscle. Blemiyeh (headless men) perhaps? (think they’re Welsh or Irish) Or maybe some sort of gargoyle?

Just some things I've been thinking about in order to avoid doing actual work...