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Imaginos
10-10-2008, 02:39 PM
This is more theorizing than an actual plan, but I thought I'd toss it out here anyway. I got to thinking on my way to lunch. One of the things a lot of people like about Mutants & Masterminds is the health level system. So how would you go about porting over a health level system to V&V. Here's what I was thinking...

A character has a number of health levels equal to their basic hits. They can take an amount of damage per health level equal to their hit mods. In effect, they have a similar number of hit points in theory as they do in the current system. As a character takes damage, there is a plateau effect. The damage has to equal or exceed the hit mod total for it to cause a health level of damage.

As an example:

Deadshot weighs 110 pounds, so she had 3 basic hits (3 health levels). I would definitely round up on figuring basic hits once someone crosses a threshold. Her hit mods total to 3.0576, again, I would round this up to 4 points of damage per health level. In current V&V stats, she has 10 hit points. In this system, she would have the equivalent of 12 hit points (3 health levels at 4 hit points per health level).

If Deadshot is attacked for 3 points of damage, she effectively brushes it off and does not take a health level. However, the 3 points must come off her Power score, simulating her heroism absorbing it. If she is then attacked for 5 points of damage, she takes 1 health level, and the extra point comes off her power score. If she is attacked for 10 more points of damage, she takes 2 more health levels, and the excess 2 points off her power score. Effectively, she is now unconscious. If her power score is exhausted, she would be dead.

This system will still allow for rolling with the punch, lessening the damage that actually counts. You just might take a larger hit to your power score due to any extra points beyond a health level threshold.

As you take health levels, you start suffering in combat. I would say 1 health level = no penalty (or maybe requiring 2 power per action on all actions). 2 health levels and above = -1/-5% per health level beyond the first (depending on whether a d20 roll or % roll). So after taking 3 health levels, your attacks are -2 to hit (free 1st health level, -1 for the second and -1 for the third). When you reach your last health level, you are unconscious or dead - depending on whether you have any power left.

I would say non-powered people do not count a power score for life or death. If a non-powered person (or a powered person with 0 power score) takes all of their health levels as damage, they have a number of minutes equal to their basic hits to receive medical attention.

With this, Joe average (10 scores all around), weighing 160 pounds, will have 4 health levels, and 1 hit point per level. So a bullet will kill him with one shot, but that is not a guarantee.

I would also continue to use the % chance to knock out from damage, to prevent everything from being the full beat down to near death.


So, thoughts? Ideas? Did I unconsciously crib this from someone else?

baldingfatman
10-10-2008, 04:10 PM
I've been trying to tinker around with some ideas for varying injury levels and, at first glance, I like this. You still make use of HP modifiers, so those aren't thrown out the window, which I like. I think you'd have to use the house rules that I've seen suggested for diminishing returns on Basic Hits or else characters with high body weight would be pretty much unhurtable. One question: How would regeneration work?

Imaginos
10-10-2008, 04:41 PM
I was weighing the diminshing returns on basic hits when I was pondering this. I'm thinking that leaving them as is might just work. Look at all of the bulky characters. They don't fall with one hit, but as they get beat down and beat down, they start getting groggy (penalties on health levels), eventually getting knocked out (the % penatly would apply to consciousness checks too). But I'm coming at this from the view of someone who prefers the basic hits as written.

For regeneration...okay, how about regeneration has to equal a threshold as well. So regen could be used as is, but would have to build up to gain back a health level. This would keep regen at the current rate as they are just stacking hit points into a health level until it is full. I'd apply the overage to the power score, similar to damage.

So if Deadshot in my first example had regen, and her healing rate was .9 (round up to 1), it would take her 4 turns to recover a health level.

Stephane
10-10-2008, 10:53 PM
I understand the need to retrofit to hit points to make sure you're keeping things proportional with the old system, but..

Once you're in health levels, you should seriously drop the hit points altogether. The simplicity of Health Levels is really attractive and valid, but if you're always going back to hitpoints.. it's really just overhead.

So when you're working out what regeneration does.. 4 rounds for one health level? why retrofit the hitpoint count at all? How about making it more simple and regen 1 health level per round or possibly one health level per basic hit per round?

AnotherSKip
10-11-2008, 12:21 PM
I wouldn't want regenerating Health levels per round....

Though it can work as shown by WW Rules....

With health levels you also might want Power levels too.


But I like the Health levels (and as an option what penalties per level would you suggest?)

baldingfatman
10-13-2008, 01:06 PM
The more I look at this, the less likely I think I'll use it. I do want some house rules to reflect different levels of injury and fatigue, but I don't think this is it. Not for me, anyway. Thanks for throwing it out there, though!

Imaginos
10-13-2008, 01:09 PM
I wouldn't want regenerating Health levels per round....

Though it can work as shown by WW Rules....

With health levels you also might want Power levels too.


But I like the Health levels (and as an option what penalties per level would you suggest?)

Okay, so let's suss this out. I was originally thinking power levels give a -1 or -5% penalty (depending on d20 or %), but maybe go -2 or -10% per level. Makes things a lot more impacting. I would almost consider -5 or -25% per level to show the actual wounding effect of health level loss.

As for power levels, any idea on how you might put that together? Health levels with basic hits and hit mods just kind of clicked for me. I'm pondering how you would do power levels. Thoughts?

I'm also thinking, for the sake of record keeping, any damage beyond the health level does NOT get taken from the power score, it just evaporates. So the hit mod total ends up being a target number with overages not mattering unless they hit a multiple.

Imaginos
10-13-2008, 01:10 PM
The more I look at this, the less likely I think I'll use it. I do want some house rules to reflect different levels of injury and fatigue, but I don't think this is it. Not for me, anyway. Thanks for throwing it out there, though!

Anything in particular that rubs you wrong?

baldingfatman
10-13-2008, 01:30 PM
Anything in particular that rubs you wrong?
I can't really put my finger on it.

If nothing else, it doesn't feel very V&Vish to me. There were a lot of proposed house rules on the old V&V board that were very sound rules, but I'll never use them because they seemed to be just a wee bit too far away from the original flavor of the system for my tastes.

I get that same feeling from this rule. Nothing wrong with the rule itself, but it just does not feel very much like V&V to me.

AnotherSKip
10-13-2008, 02:43 PM
How about a d20 Save Vs E or else a Wounded penalty kicks in after an excess of BH in damage have been taken?

Stephane
10-13-2008, 04:48 PM
If all you're looking for is a way to give penalties for damage levels, then you can simply say that at 50% HP you're at -1 to hit, -1 damage, etc..

Justice
10-14-2008, 01:26 AM
Hero Clix is a very smooth operator in this regard, takign away damage and movement as the PC gets wounded.

This would cease being V&V just as AD&D would cease to be its game without Hit Points. The system relies on it -though, as BFM said, it seems sound.

Sorry, no greater wisdom other than I think it could work to convert V&V PCs to M&M after a little tweaking.

Imaginos
10-14-2008, 11:27 PM
It's just that tinkering nature many of us have. I want to see what I can do and tweak to make it work a bit differently. I'd still like to come up with a variant that is more friendly for online play. I don't know if this is part of it in the long run or not.