Power Levels

[baldingfatman]

What power levels do you enjoy playing at? High-end power levels, like the headliners for Marvel and DC? Or lower levels, like the TV show Heroes (exceptions like Hiro and Peter aside)?

I have two sets of house rules for V&V: One that sets up a framework to make it easier to create really high-powered characters, and another one that takes the opposite approach, tweaking the rules to favor lower powered characters (example: I have a rule that makes multiple doses of the same power less effective than in the standard rules).

I'm working towards running a PBEM at some point and was trying to decide which set of rules to use.

[Brother Brian]

I tend to prefer lower power games. At high power levels (supers or not), it gets too easy to have the game be about the "power" rather than the charecters.

[Chimaera]

I prefer higher-powered games, including the challenge of fitting in Batman-Superman combos. While I generally don't go for the full-on MEGS DC ratings, I don't mind having serious heavy-hitters around, as well as "normals" whose skill and training allow them to play in the same ballpark.

[BlueNinja]

I don't really have a preference. As long as I'm allowed to advance and improve, then I don't mind. Put a glass ceiling on my character advancement, where the NPCs are on the top and I can never get that good, and I will start getting very, very cranky.

[AnotherSKip]

I know the characters will get there, how may be an issue but they will get there.

[Magnus Bergqvist]

Somewhere between. I want more power than the normals like Punisher or Batman can do, but hopefully avoid the all-powerful bricks...

We had in the M&N-game I play in, the situation that the Brick is so damned strong and tough that he can take almost anything that anyone else in the team can dish out. Were he to strike back with all his power, then he would send the other char flying through a couple of walls (hello chunky salsa)

/Magnus

[Justice]

Quick Op:

I like the more high-powered games for a weird reason: combat is avoided by the really big hitters (if they are wise).

Initiative - a single roll - decided who would win in those Uber-powerful cases. Who wants to take the risk? So more role-playing appeared at our tables.

Or to paraphrase a sig: "[Uber-heroes] are more polite than [normal] folk. Rudeness will get you a [nuclear blast] to the face."

;)

I just made a photocopy of the most powerful PCs sheet, used some whiteout, changed one ability to make it even nastier, re-named him and launched him back at the heroes.

Perfectly fair and balanced.

And utterly ruthless in hoisting my powergamer by his own petard.

:D

[bishoplogan]

I tend to prefer lower power games. At high power levels (supers or not), it gets too easy to have the game be about the "power" rather than the charecters.I understand,but alot of times it depends on the GM if he can make the adventure work for every one.

I prefer higher-powered games, including the challenge of fitting in Batman-Superman combos. While I generally don't go for the full-on MEGS DC ratings, I don't mind having serious heavy-hitters around, as well as "normals" whose skill and training allow them to play in the same ballpark.:thumbup:

I don't really have a preference. As long as I'm allowed to advance and improve, then I don't mind. Put a glass ceiling on my character advancement, where the NPCs are on the top and I can never get that good, and I will start getting very, very cranky.yeah, thats when you know the GM cant adapt.

Quick Op:

I like the more high-powered games for a weird reason: combat is avoided by the really big hitters (if they are wise).

Initiative - a single roll - decided who would win in those Uber-powerful cases. Who wants to take the risk? So more role-playing appeared at our tables.

Or to paraphrase a sig: "[Uber-heroes] are more polite than [normal] folk. Rudeness will get you a [nuclear blast] to the face."

;)

I just made a photocopy of the most powerful PCs sheet, used some whiteout, changed one ability to make it even nastier, re-named him and launched him back at the heroes.

Perfectly fair and balanced.

And utterly ruthless in hoisting my powergamer by his own petard.

:DI've done that,I evan copied a mid level PC's charactor.
and showed him the potential his hero had by kicking most of the teams ass.
:sagrin:

[Stephane]

I'd say mid level. Something in the FF or Spiderman levels. You're clearly Super, without being a one man army. You have your corner of the spectrum well covered, but you're still vulnerable from other spectrums.

[Baelfyre]

It's a mood thing. Sometimes I like to be down and dirty; others I like my characters to throw moons.

[DSumner]

I tend to prefer to play, and run mid-level games, but allow players some flexibility in what they want to play.

[Justice]

It's a mood thing. Sometimes I like to be down and dirty; others I like my characters to throw moons.

Gotta admit our group would declare their preference due to mood:

"alright, whaddaya want tonight?"
"Suicide Knights!"
J-man ponders...

"Alright, you guys are strapped in the cargo bay of a C-5 Galaxy Heavy lifter, at 30,000 feet, en route to Afghanistan. You are being prepped for a HALO drop right on top of Mazar-e-sharif in northern part, just south of Uzbekistan's border..."

Guys jumping to table with popcorn and pop.

"Dis is gonna be good..."

:lala: [cue Mission: Impossible theme]

[Chimaera]

I tend to prefer lower power games. At high power levels (supers or not), it gets too easy to have the game be about the "power" rather than the charecters.

It would seem to me that "powers" are one of the defining features of the genre -- certainly, plot, character and all of that is important and fun, but ultimately, (for me, anyway) it's more than a little bit about wish-fulfillment and busting ass with 'kewl powerz'. Not engaging in a certain amount of cheerful combat using superhuman powers is sort of like trying to enter vegetarian stew with cumin into a chili competition. Sure, you can find someone who'll go for it, but really, WTF is the point?!?

[Brother Brian]

No doubt the powers need to inform the charecter, including some kickass combat.

I'd argue though that the better superheros are more than just a receptical of power, and in my experience, high powered PC are much more likely to be played as a 2D charecture than lower power charecters, regardless of genre.

That said, what would constitute low power in a supers game would be high power in a d20 modern setting.

[Chimaera]

I think that what you're referring to is more a function of the players than the power-level. GMs can be good or bad, but almost definitionally, they are omnipotent (in the context of the game). I disagree that higher power levels correlate in any meaningful way with poor playing or the atrophy of characterization and elaboration of plot.

[Ja§on]

I've got a certain fondness for low-powered supers games, but I've really enjoyed all sorts of variations. Power level is just one of many factors to be harmonized in a satisfying game.

For large groups, I like lower power levels overall, so as to keep niche capabilities prominent. With a small group, higher power levels and/or a wider array of capabilities per character can help the group handle a wider range of challenges and thereby open up interesting plot/campaign possibilities. Too much power can close off certain storylines, as well. It's a matter of selective focus and emphasis, a matter of personal style and taste as much as anything else.

Also for large groups, one or two members of notably greater (or lesser) potency than the baseline can make for a cool dynamic, but it has to be group-agreed thing. In groups where character balance/enjoyment is a matter of "let's unzip and compare the sizes of our combat bonuses", or in which the precept of everyone trying to manage similar/equal amount of points or options is part of the fun of the game, variation in power levels may cause more resentment than it's worth, but it's usually pretty easy to gauge how much of a disparity in power level (if any) works for your group.

I've played both the Martian Manhunter and Robin ends of the hero-team-power-level spectrum, as well as points between, and generally had a blast. I've also seen people gripe at the slightest perceived edge one character might have over another. In situations where competitiveness was high, I'll admit to being one of the gripers, too.

[Stephane]

I've also played at all levels. From having a single power to being fairly uber. Power in itself isn't a main driver. The group I'm with will make or break the game. Irrelevant of the power level.

I've played nitty gritty low supers and had a blast while I played Uber powers levels and found myself dropping the campaign from boredom. So power level isn't all that. I enjoy the chemistry. If the whole group gets 4 colors, it's a whole lot of cheesy fun. Similar with the nitty gritty, slightly emo/goth, slightly Punisher/Batman. I had a blast playing in some of those. The player chemistry will make it happen.

[Ja§on]

I've also played at all levels. From having a single power to being fairly uber.What are your thoughts/experiences with that sort of range within a single group/team?

[Stephane]

Thankfully, the games tended to be fairly balanced. The really uber games had the GM push the powers or give a minimum for powers. The really low games were prebuilt with one power, period, roll please.

The more random games, the biggest disparity, it was a PBEM where I GMed. I had players with the 6 powers (and one of them was a munchkin who had an abusive combo) and one that had rolled two powers, emotion control and special weapon. I ended up beefing him after two "sessions" he was completely outclassed. He didn't have enough power points to manage several emotion controls and he ran low just wielding his weapon (he chose a hand-to-hand weapon). So after I saw how outclassed he was, I started running the game focused on him only as a storyline and after another session I morphed his special weapon. It gave him the equivalent of heightened Stat A spread out to all the physical stats. He got heightened defense from being covered with the same swirly stuff as his hammer and he gained an innate understanding of his weapon from his merging fully with it giving him a +4 to hit with his weapon.

That brought him up to lowest character, but he was effective and he gave himself a further weakness of loss of short term memory. Kaos Kid was born. If you've ever read Most Wanted 2 website? There's a somewhat similar write up that I've used as an NPC since that game stopped. It's not the PC, but the essence of that PC. He was the coolest PC, the player was awesome and roleplayed around the munchkin like you wouldn't believe. His weapon really became something like Venom and covered him up and changed/bonded with him.

I have many fond memories of that game.

It really depends on the game and the players. Players can co exists with varying levels of power so long as players allow it to happen. If you have a munchkin that cares little for anything except his character and amassing xp/power. It won't work. Something is going to have to give.

[AnotherSKip]

the simple answer is give the characters spotlight time. Each character gets a portion of the time in the spotlight. the wise ones will build up the social and power abilities (and getting shots at good roleplaying XP), the poor ones will just chase th dragon (and fall behind RP wise).

however the uber-powerful that want's nothing more than more power will spend his spotlight time chasing that power..... and not end up doing much else. there are also things that are soooo huge that basically Ubermensch and Aunt May end up being at the same power level in comparison.

[bishoplogan]

the simple answer is give the characters spotlight time. Each character gets a portion of the time in the spotlight. the wise ones will build up the social and power abilities (and getting shots at good roleplaying XP), the poor ones will just chase th dragon (and fall behind RP wise).

however the uber-powerful that want's nothing more than more power will spend his spotlight time chasing that power..... and not end up doing much else. there are also things that are soooo huge that basically Ubermensch and Aunt May end up being at the same power level in comparison.I agree. I had a character that was mid level skills in a game where everyone else had powers.
I did a lot of roleplaying some of it solo by the time the game ended (10yrs of playing) I was the highest level 17th and the most dangerous.Besides having h.att,Ihad lots of contacts money and influance.I started off as a grunt in the army,when I was in the service(life reflects art/art reflects life :naughty:)
:sawink2:

[Food Eater Lad]

Last time we played, I had my players roll up new characters. The catch, they will NEVER get superpowers. I always wanted to try a game where all the players are Punisher types. They will be united by being victims of violent crimes, or their families have been killed by criminals.

They will be recruited by the most famous of all NPC Punisher type Vigilantes; The Urban Legend. They will have to learn to fight, and develop skills to take out the mafia.

In my game, you can spend inventing points to learn skills. Or you can train and gain one skill per level. This is the case whether you are superpowered or not.

Also, I added a critical hit system so even Supers can be a bit fearful around guns.

I don't expect the new characters to make it to a high level.



Just something I have always wanted to try.

[Dai Oni]

For me it depends on mood. I love running agent level/dark champions level games, but love the power level of The Avengers/FF/JLA as well. If I am playing I still love a broad range. The tougher issue to deal with is if one character is clearly more powerful than the rest or if one is significantly weaker than the rest.

[Dr. Mercury]

A game mechanic that can deal with a wide spectrum of power levels--V&V's various powers and modifiers, DC Heroes' exploding dice, 1997's Marvel SAGA trump-card system--is okay by me. I've had fun at just about any power level, but the fun ends when the game system or campaign can't handle the power level. When the campaign world degenerates into a bunch of jaded demi-gods punching the time clock or an abattoir where the heroes get pwned by mooks, that's when it's time to pack it in.

[Strongman]

A game mechanic that can deal with a wide spectrum of power levels--V&V's various powers and modifiers, DC Heroes' exploding dice, 1997's Marvel SAGA trump-card system--is okay by me. I've had fun at just about any power level, but the fun ends when the game system or campaign can't handle the power level. When the campaign world degenerates into a bunch of jaded demi-gods punching the time clock or an abattoir where the heroes get pwned by mooks, that's when it's time to pack it in.

+1

It's no different than D&D (for me, anyway). Extremely low levels can be frustrating because it's so hard to do anything truly heroic and extremely high levels get boring because it's so easy to do the same. Gamers want a challenge and that normally comes at mid levels where they can actually do something but yet where they still struggle. YMMV, I guess, but that's my experience.

[Strongman]

Last time we played, I had my players roll up new characters. The catch, they will NEVER get superpowers. I always wanted to try a game where all the players are Punisher types. They will be united by being victims of violent crimes, or their families have been killed by criminals.

They will be recruited by the most famous of all NPC Punisher type Vigilantes; The Urban Legend. They will have to learn to fight, and develop skills to take out the mafia.

In my game, you can spend inventing points to learn skills. Or you can train and gain one skill per level. This is the case whether you are superpowered or not.

Also, I added a critical hit system so even Supers can be a bit fearful around guns.

I don't expect the new characters to make it to a high level.



Just something I have always wanted to try.

Sounds kinda neat. Hard to call it a "supers" game, though.

[Food Eater Lad]

Sounds kinda neat. Hard to call it a "supers" game, though.

Touche.

True, its the logical extention of what I have been doing for a while. Every time a character makes up a new character, I have them run their first adventure without powers. By the time they get their powers, they are half way to, or in two cases, second level.

I ran one game where all the players were military, and on a mission. A supervillian transported them to a D&D world, and they had to fight orks, trolls and such with machine guns and grenades.

By the time they were third level, a few had gone "native" and were in armour and carrying swords. One learned magic. The magic using player opted to stay in the Fantasy World, while the rest returned and became superheroes. That one player rolled up a new character. He thought it was what the character would have wanted to do.

That series of adventures is what inspired This.http://paratime.ca/v_and_v/fantasy.html and is something I would like to return to.



I am also toying with the idea of all the players being Vampires and then mabye a cabal of young wizards. All in V&V style. In fact, all these adventures are all set in the same game world.

[Strongman]

Touche.

True, its the logical extention of what I have been doing for a while. Every time a character makes up a new character, I have them run their first adventure without powers. By the time they get their powers, they are half way to, or in two cases, second level.

I ran one game where all the players were military, and on a mission. A supervillian transported them to a D&D world, and they had to fight orks, trolls and such with machine guns and grenades.

By the time they were third level, a few had gone "native" and were in armour and carrying swords. One learned magic. The magic using player opted to stay in the Fantasy World, while the rest returned and became superheroes. That one player rolled up a new character. He thought it was what the character would have wanted to do.

That series of adventures is what inspired This.http://paratime.ca/v_and_v/fantasy.html and is something I would like to return to.



I am also toying with the idea of all the players being Vampires and then mabye a cabal of young wizards. All in V&V style. In fact, all these adventures are all set in the same game world.


The referenced page is pretty cool. Are you the one who originated the statting of D&D stuff with V&V rules? I've admired that for years. Truthfully, V&V stats on some of the D&D creatures make them out to be more "true" to my vision of what they should be than D&D stats do.

[baldingfatman]

The referenced page is pretty cool. Are you the one who originated the statting of D&D stuff with V&V rules? I've admired that for years. Truthfully, V&V stats on some of the D&D creatures make them out to be more "true" to my vision of what they should be than D&D stats do.
I have been recently converting many of my old AD&D PCs and NPCs to V&V, and I find that I like them a lot better in V&V. The conversion process forces me to step back and ask myself, "What was this character really all about?" I get back to the core of the character, stripping away a lot of the useless trappings that characters often accumulate (i.e.: the mounds of loot that have nothing to do with what the character is really all about but AD&D encourages characters to accumulate, esp. 1st edition).

I think V&V could be a very interesting choice for running a fantasy campaign, although I think there'd have to be some house rules to increase lethality. Monster-slaying is a key element of fantasy, but V&V is designed to make it hard to kill characters.

[Chimaera]

I actually crossed-over my D&D and V&V campaigns a couple of times... it was a high-powered, high-level, every box-set AD&D 2e, splat-book heavy game, so the first clash wasn't as lopsided as you'd imagine. It was fun making them run both their D&D characters and their V&V characters as they fought each other. And I made sure that they played their D&D characters as badass and as bloodthirsty as ever...

[Justice]

When the campaign world degenerates into a bunch of jaded demi-gods punching the time clock or an abattoir where the heroes get pwned by mooks, that's when it's time to pack it in.

Curse you, Dr. Mercury - I had to run for the dictionary though I DID grasp the concept! [abattoir = slaughterhouse ]

Very well put. When I played some of the Vampire LARP, I really felt the first point (hey, we're all vampires and immortals - lets spend a lot of time hanging around and act intriguing) and the second, well - I've been guilty of 'cause I was sick of watching PCs bash everything in sight. My bad GM day, it were.

I had a player once point out to me that he liked the fact that in Champions the goons were really goons - and were treated as such.

In V&V, it is very easy to find yourself one step removed from a goon or a Normal - physically.

Example:
"Wow - I've got five powers!"

"Any heightened stats?"

"Nope -nary a one."

"Watch out."

"You mean with Plant Control, Telepathy, Emotion Control, Ht. Expertise and Speed Bonus, I could get pwned?"

"Oh yeah... easily. Easily."

"I can outwit them!"

"Repeat after me: 1st level Magic-User."

"You mean... five hit points...?"

"Five."

"...crud-buckets...."


:troutslap: <(wait - that's a x4% of K.O.!)

[AnotherSKip]

You know what Heroes seems to be slowly leveling the playing field.

the telepathic cop? he will have his dads powers one day that Will probably put him on par with multiflex guys....

[Food Eater Lad]

The referenced page is pretty cool. Are you the one who originated the statting of D&D stuff with V&V rules? I've admired that for years. Truthfully, V&V stats on some of the D&D creatures make them out to be more "true" to my vision of what they should be than D&D stats do.


Yes, I was even credited with it on the page. Thanks! I am mentioned by name. My real name is John Bua.

[bishoplogan]

Last time we played, I had my players roll up new characters. The catch, they will NEVER get superpowers. I always wanted to try a game where all the players are Punisher types. They will be united by being victims of violent crimes, or their families have been killed by criminals.

They will be recruited by the most famous of all NPC Punisher type Vigilantes; The Urban Legend. They will have to learn to fight, and develop skills to take out the mafia.

In my game, you can spend inventing points to learn skills. Or you can train and gain one skill per level. This is the case whether you are superpowered or not.

Also, I added a critical hit system so even Supers can be a bit fearful around guns.

I don't expect the new characters to make it to a high level.



Just something I have always wanted to try.nice i like the idea and I really like the inventing pt thing:th_dblthumb2:. I wish I had that back in the day my Skills Gods would have been worse:D

+1

It's no different than D&D (for me, anyway). Extremely low levels can be frustrating because it's so hard to do anything truly heroic and extremely high levels get boring because it's so easy to do the same. Gamers want a challenge and that normally comes at mid levels where they can actually do something but yet where they still struggle. YMMV, I guess, but that's my experience.At high levels take them out of their element give them families and holdings. now they have problems they can't smash or shoot.

Touche.

True, its the logical extention of what I have been doing for a while. Every time a character makes up a new character, I have them run their first adventure without powers. By the time they get their powers, they are half way to, or in two cases, second level.

I ran one game where all the players were military, and on a mission. A supervillian transported them to a D&D world, and they had to fight orks, trolls and such with machine guns and grenades.

By the time they were third level, a few had gone "native" and were in armour and carrying swords. One learned magic. The magic using player opted to stay in the Fantasy World, while the rest returned and became superheroes. That one player rolled up a new character. He thought it was what the character would have wanted to do.

sounds like it was fun.
:sasmokin:

[Food Eater Lad]

Hey,

Well we played our first a non powered adventure. All three of my players were normals who were victums of crime. They called themselves Blackjack, the Scrapper, and John Q Public.
I found that the players asked more questions then normal. They wanted more descriptions of their surroundings and they coordinated their efforts a bit more. Without being able to hide behind forcefields and powerblasts, I guess they needed to rely on more teamwork and planning.

At one point all three were laughing out loud so hard their faces were red. My one munchinesque player, who objected the loudest to the very idea of playing normals, said he had fun.

I figure two or three more sessions to finish this story and then go back to their regular, super, characters.

[bishoplogan]

Hey,

Well we played our first a non powered adventure. All three of my players were normals who were victums of crime. They called themselves Blackjack, the Scrapper, and John Q Public.
I found that the players asked more questions then normal. They wanted more descriptions of their surroundings and they coordinated their efforts a bit more. Without being able to hide behind forcefields and powerblasts, I guess they needed to rely on more teamwork and planning.

At one point all three were laughing out loud so hard their faces were red. My one munchinesque player, who objected the loudest to the very idea of playing normals, said he had fun.

I figure two or three more sessions to finish this story and then go back to their regular, super, characters.

When you say normal that means no rolling from skill's table also ?
:sasmokin:

[Food Eater Lad]

When you say normal that means no rolling from skill's table also ?
:sasmokin:


Yup. Only knowledge areas were permitted. No powers of any kind. I use a system were you can use inventing points for knowledge areas. And you learn things like Martial Arts, marksmenship, dodge, or anything you can reasonably argue.

[Stephane]

I figure two or three more sessions to finish this story and then go back to their regular, super, characters.

Do you mean those characters are going to become supers?

[Justice]

FEL,

I have a terrible history of wanting hi-level munchkiny characters, but I must say, if the GM sets the story right, I love the lower-powered stuff. Surviving is a nobler task and accomplishment for these guys, and the relief of victory is more palpable.

Thanks for reminding me of that.

Steph, I think he meant they would re-play their old superhuman PCs though I could be misreading.

[Stephane]

Steph, I think he meant they would re-play their old superhuman PCs though I could be misreading.
I figure as much, but I'm asking anyways.. ;)

Since his munchkin player is actually having fun, it might be interesting how far he can pursue this one.. see?

[Food Eater Lad]

Do you mean those characters are going to become supers?


As of right now, the plan is that they will never get super powers.

[Food Eater Lad]

They are not playing themselves either. Randomly rolled characters just without the powers. They have hits between 7 and ten and a plus to hit of the highest +2. One of the badguys pulled out a pistol, and they all nearly had a heart attack!

I figure they have about two or three more adventures in them before we return to their old super powered characters.

[bishoplogan]

Yup. Only knowledge areas were permitted. No powers of any kind. I use a system were you can use inventing points for knowledge areas. And you learn things like Martial Arts, marksmenship, dodge, or anything you can reasonably argue. I just love that idea

FEL,

I have a terrible history of wanting hi-level munchkiny characters, but I must say, if the GM sets the story right, I love the lower-powered stuff. Surviving is a nobler task and accomplishment for these guys, and the relief of victory is more palpable. yeah me two,and V&V is a good system for it

I figure as much, but I'm asking anyways.. ;)

Since his munchkin player is actually having fun, it might be interesting how far he can pursue this one.. see?I agree

As of right now, the plan is that they will never get super powers.ok, still things can be real fun

They are not playing themselves either. Randomly rolled characters just without the powers. They have hits between 7 and ten and a plus to hit of the highest +2. One of the badguys pulled out a pistol, and they all nearly had a heart attack!

I figure they have about two or three more adventures in them before we return to their old super powered characters.
I dont know it sounds like fun,maybe you should keep it going a lot longer.

Have they're adventures cross paths with supers,maybe doing some of the leg work for some of the supers that dont have that type of training.
Like detective work for a hero like Superman,whos powerful but cant be subtle.

Just my two cents.
But dont end so soon.

[Food Eater Lad]

We just played out second installment of the non powered heroes. They knocked it out of the park! Knowing their limitations made for more teamwork. That and the need for equipment and planning. They are moving up the crime ladder taking out the small drug sellers, then going after their supplier until they take out the drug kingpin. The bad guys are now hiring some well trained muscle. And each player has now found their voice. One of the player characters is a Roarchack knockoff called John Q Public. Picture Roarchack, but with a clear plastic human face mask. He has that unpredicible thing working for him. It was a lot of fun.