V&V: Dethroning Agility

[Ja§on]

Let's be honest. In the rules as written, Agility isn't just the best stat. It's the overbearing pack-alpha stat, freely roughing up the others, taking their lunch money, making out with their girlfriends, wrecking the curve on the pop quiz, and still being asked to be everyone's best man at their hollow, meaningless weddings.

A roll of Heightened Agility, more than any other single power, practically guarantees a hero's combat effectiveness, boosting his accuracy, damage output, initiative, and often # of actions/round in one fell swoop. When you factor the potential utility of an extra action or two each round (maintaining a dodge, saving an action to interrupt, getting an extra attack complete with those boosted accuracy and damage values, et al) , no other stat matches its offensive or defensive relevance. It is inexplicably more relevant to how much damage a character can sustain (not evading it completely or mitigate by rolling with it, as those are decidedly different mechanics in V&V) than Strength, while strangely having no more influence on how well a character dodges than Strength, Endurance, or Intelligence (although, as noted, it can give an extra action with which to initiate/maintain an active Dodge).

So, what to do?

I've seen many house rules swap the Strength and Agility HP mods, which makes sense. My last iteration went so far as to give Agility the Intelligence grade of HP mods (.1/bracket), put the .2/bracket mods on the Will Stat.

I also remove damage bonuses for Agility. Yes, there's a certain degree of sense to them, but they're really just overkill.

So, my proposed strip down of Agility reads like so:+1 Accuracy per bracket, .1 HP mod per bracket, still is base number for Initiative.

I'm open to suggestions as to how Agility could better influence Dodge effects.

Any thoughts?

[Chimaera]

Good thread and good concept. In my game, Agility gives no hit-point mod at all, given that the combat value of Agility lies in the accuracy and damage modifiers. I'll give this more thought.

[Imaginos]

Just an FYI - the swap of Agil and Str mods is from Jeff Dee's "rules upgrades" to V&V2E, to make it a point construction system. It can be found on his V&V site.

As for Agil being such a strong factor, I never really had that big of an issue with it. I see what you are wanting to do, and will give it some thought today.

[Harkker]

[QUOTE=Ja§on;222261]Let's be honest. In the rules as written, Agility isn't just the best stat. It's the overbearing pack-alpha stat, freely roughing up the others, taking their lunch money, making out with their girlfriends, wrecking the curve on the pop quiz, and still being asked to be everyone's best man at their hollow, meaningless weddings.
QUOTE]

LOL

You do not speak with forked tongue... but to be frank i think if you look at comics you will see that the most annoying fights always have someone with a high agility. its the reason why spiderman can hang with the big guns,

they also almost always spend the first action to evade, which sort of negates it a little.

[Origen]

... but to be frank i think if you look at comics you will see that the most annoying fights always have someone with a high agility. its the reason why spiderman can hang with the big guns.

It's always a mistake, though, when speaking of game design, to say, "But look at how it works in the comic/book/movie."

Although you're looking to emulate those things, game design requires balance. Yes, Spiderman is very good at dodging, but according to the description above, agility doesn't just make you better at dodging.

In D&D 3.X, Strength is the most important stat for combat, hands down. It is ridiculously annoying to create a successful, satisfying Dex-based fighter in that version of D&D because damage is based primarily upon Strength, with two-handed weapon dealers dishing out the most damage of all.

[baldingfatman]

I use some of the house rules already mentioned with regards to Agility: I swap the h.p. mod between Str and Agl (I don't drop it completely, as I see it representing resilience) and I drop the damage modifier.

For the Evasion defense, I use the accuracy modifier from Agility (rather than the character's Power score) to determine the defensive bonus the dodging character receives (which means it's of no benefit to slower, less agile characters). The bonus is reduced as the character loses Power points, so fatigue does make it a less effective defense.

Agility abuse was a major factor in my original campaigns. We had one player who always made it a point to ensure that every character he created got at least one dose of Heightened Agility, which was usually combined with some other power that pumped up his initiative somehow. So most fights were him plowing in beating the tar out of half the bad guys while the rest of the PCs sat around twiddling their thumbs waiting for their turn to act.

It was not so much an issue in later campaigns, as:

1. Whenever we saw a particular player was a munchkin and his munchkining made it less fun for the rest of us, we stopped inviting that player to play with us.

2. The GM (usually me) got more comfortable saying "no" when presented with a power combo we did not like.

3. We developed house rules that helped us better regulate character power levels, making it less likely for a PC to have gonzo Agility scores.

[Brother Brian]

It's always a mistake, though, when speaking of game design, to say, "But look at how it works in the comic/book/movie."

Although you're looking to emulate those things, game design requires balance. Yes, Spiderman is very good at dodging, but according to the description above, agility doesn't just make you better at dodging.

In D&D 3.X, Strength is the most important stat for combat, hands down. It is ridiculously annoying to create a successful, satisfying Dex-based fighter in that version of D&D because damage is based primarily upon Strength, with two-handed weapon dealers dishing out the most damage of all.

Ranged combat is difficult if not impossible to do in any HP based system.

A big two handed weapon effects multiple body systems, which allows a lot of room for error while still doing considerable damage.

With ranged weapons, the line between lethal and not lethal is a lot more distinct. Miss vital organs, and you probably don't kill your enemy. As a mechanic, this would be represented with small damage.

To correct this, I've used for guns/bows, etc, a revised critical hit system. Roll a crit, and roll again. A second crit kills any non-essential NPC instantly.

[Chimaera]

I could get behind reducing the accuracy and damage modifiers for Agility. I'd also consider adding a bit of a damage bonus for Strength -- I know that strength is the primary determiner of CC, which in turn is the primary source of HTH damage. But, I've always interpreted the Strength stat as essentially tissue efficiency -- I would argue that of two characters with the same CC, but one arrives at it via a high STR and the other by being massive, the one with the high STR would have an edge. He or she would have a little more "snap" in his or her punch, IMV. Also, perhaps intitative could be influenced by Agility (and, perhaps, Intelligence) instead of being determined by it.

[AnotherSKip]

well perhaps instead of 1d10+agi perhaps 1d10 x 1+ (figure formerly known as Damage modifier from Agility&Int).

Admitttedly that Would mean that almost no one would ever get two actions without powers and Super genuis could be faster than the speedster (note Ht speed does still give the RAW advantage of + flat modifier, that would make a speedster with that power a more predictable as well as frequently more active than others, even those with high modifiers from agility).

[Justice]

well perhaps instead of 1d10+agi perhaps 1d10 x 1+ (figure formerly known as Damage modifier from Agility&Int).

Admitttedly that Would mean that almost no one would ever get two actions without powers and Super genuis could be faster than the speedster (note Ht speed does still give the RAW advantage of + flat modifier, that would make a speedster with that power a more predictable as well as frequently more active than others, even those with high modifiers from agility).

If you edit this where I can see it more clearly and give me some examples, I might use it!

We swapped AGI & STR modifiers for HP.
Evasion is now based off of AGI, not power points.
I changed Initiative to AGI + 2d10 - 20 to give a more gentle bell curve and level the playing field.

It helped a lot, chopping off one or two assumed actions. They still won Initiative, but the others did not have to twiddle their thumbs as long (or at all if they saved the action or began evading).

[AnotherSKip]

OKies how about this:

Init= 1d10 +1d10(times the + you would have as a damage modifer from Agi and Int minimum of zero)

thus If Megaman had An 7 int and 18 Agility then he would get 1d10+ 1d10 x(-1 [from int] +2 [from Agility] =+1) so he would roll 2d10.

If Superfreak had 34 Agility (+4) and 22 INt (+2) he would get 7d10 (1d10 base + 1d10 (+2 +4 =6)

Ape (see the thread character display: Ape) has 4d10+28 which comes from: 1d10 + 1d10 ( 0+3=3) + 28 hightened Speed

[baldingfatman]

If you edit this where I can see it more clearly and give me some examples, I might use it!
I think he's saying that you roll a number of d10 equal to 1 + the combined damage modifier for Agility and Intelligence. And you do NOT add the dice to the character's raw Agility score.

So, a completely average character with 10 Int and 10 Agl would have no damage modifier. The character would roll a flat 1d10 for initiative (meaning he would have no chance for a 2nd action in any given turn).

A character with a 20 Intelligence and 20 Agility would have a combined damage modifier of +3 (+1 for Int, +2 for Agility). That character would roll 4d10 to determine initiative.

Am I getting this right?


EDIT: Seems like we crossed posts. I see you already explained it.

[Chimaera]

I'm digging this. How do we figure Initiative bonuses for Heightened Speed and Speed Bonus? Dice? Flat bonus?

[AnotherSKip]

Flat bonus,
it takes out some randomness... but then they can't roll a 6 on 6d10 and only take on action.

[Justice]

Oh, I DID understand it poorly - I thought you were suggesting a MULTIPLE times the d10, not extra dice. WHEW!

The double posts served to clarify.

Hmmmm.

Effectively you introduce a flatter and flatter bell curve, insuring in most cases an Average of 5.5/die. Nice because it is already seen in big CC HtoH damage.

In other words, the system has a place for it mechanically - you just want to apply it to Initiative.:naughty:

Let's see what we are speaking of.


Ignoring Agility and going with the suggested 1d10 Base, our numbers show this:

A 6d10 Initiative is a 33 - they will go on 33, 18, 3.
A 7d10 Initiative is a 38/39 - they will go on 38, 23, 8.

Joe Shmoe the low-powered Hero is a 4d10 with a 22 (average) - he goes on 21, 6.

It will take a 7d10 Initiative to get 2 full actions before Joe Shmoe.
A 5 or 6d10 will allow just one, then Shmoe attacks.

It is a real leveler, I must admit.

In the Gamer's mind, he or she will understand that the goal is to roll high, getting another Action for every 15 points they roll.

Hmmm. Boy, that will change the tabletop experience quick!

LATE EDIT: I had to correct "Joe Shmoe" to be a low-powered PC- the average Normal just goes on 11, period.

[AnotherSKip]

Perhap we could even adjust it to follow the str/Ccap damage list (1d10-1=1d8, 1d10+1=1d12, 1d10+2=2d8, etc

though a straight brain would go faster than normal people.....

[Justice]

Not a bad thing - quickness of thought impacts reaction time.

I am not perfectly sold yet on rolling several d10 to know Initiative, but I must say this is the most creative solution and has a lot of "V&V"-ness at its base.

In other words, a V&V 3rd edition - put out in say an alternate timeline of 1985 - would have been blessed to use this mechanic.

It would have made Int more useful, more comic book style and given pure Mentalists a reason to be feared - as well as the good Int/good Agi crowd -from Spider-Man to Beast to Batman, who always seemed to win Initiative even though they were NOT superfast.

It would give some credence as to why Barry Allen would have to be the one taking on the Anti-Monitor ("Who's go the highest Initiative? And it had better be HIGH!")

It would explain why the Beast would often seem rash - getting into combat first and getting smacked - but would be known for his Int and Agi. (He's actually trying to either 1) draw fire or 2) give his teammates extra time.)

Yeah.

I think this may be the better emulator, Skip.

[AnotherSKip]

just kinda a random thought about how to make use of the Damage Modifier without making damage related.