Guide the newbe

[Brother Brian]

So I was talking with some friends, and we're interested in trying a super's game in the world of "Heroes".

I've played a few supers games back in the day, but am not anywhere near an expert.

My questions:

1. What system do you recommend. Ideally I'd like something that lends itself to fairly easy creation of new powers.

2. How would you balance it? Heroes works because the charecters with the uber-powers (Peter, Hiro, etc) have internal controls that tend to stop them from dominating the action, and in many cases it's the non-super charecters (Suresh, HRG) who drive the action. Munkining seems an inherent danger.

[hidufel]

V&V. http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=859&it=1

Lends itself really well to 'Heroes' and has random generation... Since heroes typically have only one power... (except peter, and Syler) you can roll for three random powers and choose between them.


alternativly you could keep a weakness and have two powers...


Easy peasy.

[baldingfatman]

I've never played M&M, but from what I hear it seems like it wouldn't be a bad fit. I'd avoid Champions (since you're a newbie to supers gaming and Champions is pretty complex).

V&V is easily my favorite super-hero RPG, so I would have to second Hidufel's recommendation.

The rules are easy to learn and the system is very flexible regarding how powers are defined, so designing new powers is not too difficult (in fact, several of the powers require you to design new character abilities--e.g.: Body Power, Mutant Power, Psionics, etc.).

Likewise, that same flexibility makes it easy for a GM to impose limitations on powers to prevent abuse.

All that being said, I do have a couple of caveats:

1. The system's flexibility can easily be exploited for munchkinism. As GM, you have to keep an eye out to prevent abuse and be ready to say "No, that's too powerful."

The flexibility can also be a little bit overwhelming for a new player. Too much choice.

Example: I recently tried to introduce a friend to V&V. In rolling his first character, he got Magnetic Powers, Heightened Agility, Body Power, Mutant Power, and Psionics. The Magnetic Powers and Heightened Agility he could understand right off, because they're described explicitly in the rules, but it stymied him coming up with ideas for the other three.

"Okay, what do you want your Mutant Power to be?"
"What can it be?"
"Pretty much whatever you want it to."
"Like what?"
"That's up to you."
"So I can make it...?"
"Whatever you want."
"..."
"So...?"
"Let me think about it for a while."
"Okay. We'll get back to that. What do you want your Psionic power to be?"
"What can it be?"
"Whatever you want."
"Grrrrr...."

2. I'm not sure how closely you are thinking of following the tone of Heroes. Characters seem to die pretty frequently in Heroes. That's not something that V&V does too well. The rules are set up to make it hard to kill off most characters (even for characters with average stats), so if you were going for the lethality of the show you would need to have some house rules governing lethality.

[Brother Brian]

I've never played M&M, but from what I hear it seems like it wouldn't be a bad fit. I'd avoid Champions (since you're a newbie to supers gaming and Champions is pretty complex).

V&V is easily my favorite super-hero RPG, so I would have to second Hidufel's recommendation.

The rules are easy to learn and the system is very flexible regarding how powers are defined, so designing new powers is not too difficult (in fact, several of the powers require you to design new character abilities--e.g.: Body Power, Mutant Power, Psionics, etc.).

Likewise, that same flexibility makes it easy for a GM to impose limitations on powers to prevent abuse.

All that being said, I do have a couple of caveats:

1. The system's flexibility can easily be exploited for munchkinism. As GM, you have to keep an eye out to prevent abuse and be ready to say "No, that's too powerful."

The flexibility can also be a little bit overwhelming for a new player. Too much choice.

Example: I recently tried to introduce a friend to V&V. In rolling his first character, he got Magnetic Powers, Heightened Agility, Body Power, Mutant Power, and Psionics. The Magnetic Powers and Heightened Agility he could understand right off, because they're described explicitly in the rules, but it stymied him coming up with ideas for the other three.

"Okay, what do you want your Mutant Power to be?"
"What can it be?"
"Pretty much whatever you want it to."
"Like what?"
"That's up to you."
"So I can make it...?"
"Whatever you want."
"..."
"So...?"
"Let me think about it for a while."
"Okay. We'll get back to that. What do you want your Psionic power to be?"
"What can it be?"
"Whatever you want."
"Grrrrr...."

2. I'm not sure how closely you are thinking of following the tone of Heroes. Characters seem to die pretty frequently in Heroes. That's not something that V&V does too well. The rules are set up to make it hard to kill off most characters (even for characters with average stats), so if you were going for the lethality of the show you would need to have some house rules governing lethality.

I was thinking about that.

First I was going to set it in Western Europe, of the same meta-verse of the show, as of the end of season 2. None of the show's leads would show up, (at first), and the company would function somewhat differently.

But the tone of being one in a million or so, in a world much like the real world, is what I'm going for. That does lend itself to some amount of lethality.

[Huxley]

HERO can accommodate lethality fairly easily. Their are a few rules that the GM decides to run with, and there is a specific limitation for a super hero game where the character is a normal person with super powers. But, like baldingfatman said, it is complex, and takes time to learn. It's very flexible, and all the work is in the homework -- as in, it plays smoothly once characters are made and most everyone knows the system. But it takes some work to get there.

I just have to throw in my 2 pennies for the HERO system, since, like, yeah, it has its faults, but it's the only one I own anymore :D.

[Chimaera]

For ease of use and modelling powers, V&V rocks, although it is a system that almost shrieks for tinkering. Also, I'm not a fan of the combat system at all. Out of the box, not so much, I'm thinking.

M&M really is the current gold-standard of superhero RPGs, IMV. It's OGL, so if you and your players have any familiarity with d20, like D&D 3 and/or 3.5, the concepts transfer well. It runs quite smoothely and building custom powers is pretty straightforward, with the list of existing powers being pretty good as is. The archetypes are solid and playable as is, as well. I played the original edition and it worked quite well -- the lack of hit points was a bit odd at first, but combat ran quickly and well. I haven't played the second edition, but by all accounts, it runs even better. Lethality is basically up to you, IIRC - you can basically decide how lethal you want things to be -- I don't remember that part terribly well, though.

GURPS Supers (3.x -- I haven't done much more than skim GURPS 4) kicks ass and is also well suited to the "Heroes" setting, IMHO. GURPS works best at this level, I think. GURPS handles supers and non-supers mixed quite well.

[BlueNinja]

the world of "Heroes".

1. What system do you recommend. Ideally I'd like something that lends itself to fairly easy creation of new powers. Admittedly, my only super-power-gaming experience is with Aberrant. That said, every character I can think of on the show I could easily stat out in the system. Hiro is the biggest problem with the time travel (which is a hideously expensive power, for the high-level novas) but he's still doable. That said, in a Heroes-verse, I'd probably do away with Taint, or deal with it very, very differently. Some people (like Silar, or the new level 5 villains) would still need some of the mental problems, and there's been a few examples of people with less-than-perfect control over their powers, which are things I would probably add based on individual circumstances.

2. How would you balance it? Heroes works because the charecters with the uber-powers (Peter, Hiro, etc) have internal controls that tend to stop them from dominating the action, and in many cases it's the non-super charecters (Suresh, HRG) who drive the action. Munkining seems an inherent danger. Just because you have super-powers doesn't make you someone important. An example from the first season would be the mechanic with the super hearing. All of the characters are limited in different ways. Mohinder and Mr. Bennett are important to the plot because of what they know and what they do with it, and their lack of powers is not an automatic handicap. That's the most important thing to keep in mind - powers aren't everything.

From a gameplay standpoint, however, if someone was planning to play a "normal" I would consider giving them extra bonus points, to make up for their lack of powers, or consider waiting for an opportune time in the storyline to drop powers on them.

[Brother Brian]

I get that powers aren't everything, but how badly could a munchkin destroy the game with Hiro's power?

Although I thought of my "hook". The hatian has wiped everybody's memory. Completely.




Admittedly, my only super-power-gaming experience is with Aberrant. That said, every character I can think of on the show I could easily stat out in the system. Hiro is the biggest problem with the time travel (which is a hideously expensive power, for the high-level novas) but he's still doable. That said, in a Heroes-verse, I'd probably do away with Taint, or deal with it very, very differently. Some people (like Silar, or the new level 5 villains) would still need some of the mental problems, and there's been a few examples of people with less-than-perfect control over their powers, which are things I would probably add based on individual circumstances.

Just because you have super-powers doesn't make you someone important. An example from the first season would be the mechanic with the super hearing. All of the characters are limited in different ways. Mohinder and Mr. Bennett are important to the plot because of what they know and what they do with it, and their lack of powers is not an automatic handicap. That's the most important thing to keep in mind - powers aren't everything.

From a gameplay standpoint, however, if someone was planning to play a "normal" I would consider giving them extra bonus points, to make up for their lack of powers, or consider waiting for an opportune time in the storyline to drop powers on them.

[BlueNinja]

I get that powers aren't everything, but how badly could a munchkin destroy the game with Hiro's power? That depends on how you choose to interpret time travel. The dystopian future comes first from Peter going nuclear, and then from Nathan telling the world about the supers. But neither time does it appear to change greatly. This implies that there's a certain amount of rigity to the timeline. At the same time, Future Peter throws things into a different dystopia from seemingly minor events, implying a more butterfly-chaos-theory timeline. Either way might work, depending on the circumstances.

If you decide to use Aberrant, the simplest way would be to ban Time Travel as a power. Time Manipulation (Hiro's "Time Stop") is in the core book, and not overpowered, and you could use Pretercognition (aka paint/dream the future) as a sort of "I step into the past and learn things, while conveniently not affecting the timeline" method.

Although I thought of my "hook". The hatian has wiped everybody's memory. Completely. So how do they know each other? And what sort of things do they still know? (Because if he did a format brain, then they can't speak, much less use a toilet.)

[bishoplogan]

i would go with V&V or Aberrant because I know them well.
M&M I hear is good and the Wild cards source book has charts for random rolled powers
:sagrin:

[Imaginos]

Another thing going for M&M is the Paragon's setting sourcebook, which is kind of a toolkit book. It is, pretty much a Heroes RPG. Here is an excerpt from the book:

Throughout history, humanity has told stories of extraordinary people with powers and abilities beyond those of ordinary, everyday men and women. In the distant past, these people were epic heroes, demigods, or saints. In more recent years, they were characters in pulp and speculative fiction, comic books, and television and film. As the stories of such paragons shifted from myth and legend to popular culture and entertainment, it became more and more clear that they were not real, just power-fantasies and archetypes…until now.
Now, paragons walk the Earth: Men and women who can change the course of mighty rivers or bend steel in their bare hands. Are they the demigods and heroes of legend returned to a world where they were almost forgotten or are they something new, a tremendous
step forward in the evolution and development of life? No one can say for certain but, whoever or whatever they are, there can be no doubt that paranormals have forever changed the world around them, and “normal” may never truly be normal again.

[Sketchpad]

I'd vote for M&M as well ... between Paragons, Wild Cards and the M&M version of Gestalt, there are some great options for the "powers in the real world" sort of game.

But again, I may be a bit biased ;)

[AnotherSKip]

Hero too has randomly rolled powers.

Perhaps to get really deadly in V&V though a character could make a Special attack to deal damage to hit points directly and kill after taking those down to 0, Perhaps only availible with guns.

since burning the victim took a lot longer than a bullet to the eye.

[silverwhisper]

blueninja, someone has got to get you to read a different gorrammed supers RPG--stat.

BB, like everyone else i'm fond of M&M. chimaera's comments re: the almost inexorable-tug towards houseruling of V&V--despite the warm spot it will always have in my heart---are points i urge you to consider carefully. besides, as a practical matter it's a bit tough to find.

re: hiro's power: you could seriously, seriously screw up anything with hiro's power--but then again, this is true in many supers games in many cases, not just hiro's. in some games such as V&V, heightened speed is a game-killer; in others, superspeed is no big deal.

BB, what other games has your group already played? clearly, you don't want something completely alien--if your group is part of your white wolf group, then aberrant would probably have a low cost of change that way.

on a V&V note....re: killing people, why not just charge movement + action + an extra 20 POW when target is already helpless? ignore HPs, ignore current power, gotta inflict > basic hits dmg?

[BlueNinja]

blueninja, someone has got to get you to read a different gorrammed supers RPG--stat. I've taken a very short look at M&M (3rd, I think) but that's all. But given that I played in an Aberrant campaign for three years, it'd take a while of me actually playing another system before I'd stop instantly doing the mental comparison to Aberrant, just because I know it so much better.

Re: Speedsters: If the rules allow, they can easily be the most dangerous type of character around. In Aberrant, at least, it's pathetically easy to start, say, a kilometer away, charge in and attack once or twice, and then finish your movement a kilometer away in a different direction. Since you'll also likely have first initiative, the opponent can't even hold their action to take a shot at you.

[Brother Brian]

That depends on how you choose to interpret time travel. The dystopian future comes first from Peter going nuclear, and then from Nathan telling the world about the supers. But neither time does it appear to change greatly. This implies that there's a certain amount of rigity to the timeline. At the same time, Future Peter throws things into a different dystopia from seemingly minor events, implying a more butterfly-chaos-theory timeline. Either way might work, depending on the circumstances.

If you decide to use Aberrant, the simplest way would be to ban Time Travel as a power. Time Manipulation (Hiro's "Time Stop") is in the core book, and not overpowered, and you could use Pretercognition (aka paint/dream the future) as a sort of "I step into the past and learn things, while conveniently not affecting the timeline" method.

So how do they know each other? And what sort of things do they still know? (Because if he did a format brain, then they can't speak, much less use a toilet.)

They don't know each other. They'll wake up and be together.

And the Haitian never really effected knowledge, etc.

In fact...I may just roll their powers myself and reveal them in the first "episode". (Sort of like Peter when he was found in the shipping crate.)

[Imaginos]

BB, like everyone else i'm fond of M&M. chimaera's comments re: the almost inexorable-tug towards houseruling of V&V--despite the warm spot it will always have in my heart---are points i urge you to consider carefully. besides, as a practical matter it's a bit tough to find.

You can order V&V paper copies directly from FGU for $8.00 if you just want the rulebook (http://www.fantasygamesunlimited.net/shop/?shop=1&cat=8&cart=48387). I ordered 11 modules from them last year for $66 (to complete my collection). Quick turnaround and no issues in my experience. You can also get the PDF from RPGnow (on sale right now for like $5.60).


As for how to make V&V more lethal. A quick simple fix is not allowing characters to roll with damage (ie. no using power score to mitigate the HP damage). Lethality gets dialed up a good notch there. Another option to up this more would be to make basic hits = weight / 100 rounded up. This really ups the lethality in a big way though, as a person with 12 in all stats weighing 150 pounds has 5 hit points. A person with 10 in all stats weighing 150 pounds has 2 hit points.

[baldingfatman]

In fact...I may just roll their powers myself and reveal them in the first "episode".
I did that in a campaign once, and it worked out pretty well. However, one of the players was not really happy with his power set, so make sure you have an idea going into it what kind of characters your players would enjoy playing.

As for how to make V&V more lethal. A quick simple fix is not allowing characters to roll with damage (ie. no using power score to mitigate the HP damage). Lethality gets dialed up a good notch there. Another option to up this more would be to make basic hits = weight / 100 rounded up. This really ups the lethality in a big way though, as a person with 12 in all stats weighing 150 pounds has 5 hit points. A person with 10 in all stats weighing 150 pounds has 2 hit points.
Actually, neither one is a great fix. The problem with lethality in V&V is not characters having too many h.p., it's the lack of wounding or injury rules.

A completely average 150 lb. character with 10 in all stats would have 3 hit points and 30 points of power.

A gun does 1d10 damage, IIRC. Assuming an attacker rolled max damage (10 pts.) that would deplete the target's h.p. and take 7 points off of Power.

The target still has 23 points of Power remaining. He's not dead, and with no rules for bleeding, he's not going to die. Not without some house rules.

[Imaginos]

Actually, neither one is a great fix. The problem with lethality in V&V is not characters having too many h.p., it's the lack of wounding or injury rules.

A completely average 150 lb. character with 10 in all stats would have 3 hit points and 30 points of power.

A gun does 1d10 damage, IIRC. Assuming an attacker rolled max damage (10 pts.) that would deplete the target's h.p. and take 7 points off of Power.

The target still has 23 points of Power remaining. He's not dead, and with no rules for bleeding, he's not going to die. Not without some house rules.

Thanks for pointing this out. When I typed up my post this morning before leaving for work, I edited a part out and didn't add it back in. I was also going to say don't use Power score to determine life or death. Just let power score power powers, not keep someone alive. So that gets rid of the shot and still alive in most cases deal.

But a very good point, it doesn't address bleeding or injuries.

[baldingfatman]

Yeah, if you throw Power out of the equation, V&V is plenty lethal.