Origins: Wide Open vs. Common Source

[baldingfatman]

Traditional super-hero universes (DC, Marvel, most campaigns I have played in) allow a very wide range of character types and origins. There are aliens, mutants, altered humans, living gods, sorcerers, etc.

Some modern super-hero universes give characters a common origin for their powers. Examples: The Wild Cards universe used an alien retro-virus, Marvel's New Universe used a mysterious White Event, Marvel's Ultimates uses the Super-Soldier Serum, Smallvillle uses Kryptonite meteor rocks, the world of Marshall Law used bionic and bio-physical augmentation, etc.

Many of these modern universes do not allow for certain character types (gods, aliens, sorcerers, etc.). There are exceptions (there are aliens in Wild Cards and New Universe, Thor is running around in Marvel Ultimates, the main character in Smallville is Superman, the archetypical alien hero, etc.) but where they occur they are in the minority.

My question is: Which do type of setting you prefer in your super-hero games (as a player or as a GM)?

I've played in both types of universes and they each have something to offer. I'm interested in your takes on it.

[Magnus Bergqvist]

Hmm, having a wide background means greear chance of playing whatever it is you want to play. But, it also creates a lot more problems for the Gamemaster, as you suddenly have to deal with magic, alien super high-tech etc...

The narrow background is more restrictive for the players, but it aslo makes it easier for the GM. You also get rid of the Superman/Batman-problem (Superman on his own is awesome. Superman together with Batman is reduced to nothingness in power, Or Batman is raised so high in power that he becomes godlike).

/Magnus

[bishoplogan]

I dont know any superhero universe thats missing any of those elements.
When it comes to superhero universes they throw everything in plus the kitchen sink:whacky044:.

when I GM or play, I like it all.
Cause it adds suspense and mystery to any plots.
:sawink2:

[Imaginos]

It depends on what kind of game I want to run or play in. If I want a wide open gonzo 4 color world, then anything is open. If I want, say, a game focused on oppression, bigotry, and genocide, I would limit the characters to mutant origens with some tech allowed.

[hidufel]

We use the wide open method in our ftf game. there is such a wide variety...

[Chimaera]

I've worked both and combinations thereof. The common-origin theory has a certain appeal to pseudo-reality. You can also have some common mechanism that is triggered in different ways. I find I can't quite get behind the whole 60's Marvel farrago of atomic origins thing anymore, but I do find the strict "hard" sci-fi common origin thing to be a bit stuffy as well.

[Justice]

I've always preferred the variety and "as you will" mentality. I followed Marvel in this regard, basically eschewing the Greek mythos except in one notable occasion.

I tended to think of the superhero genre as a "pseudo reality" with power more available and even necessary to fight evil in its various forms.

I cannot place my finger on it, but I admire and enjoy the Norse mythos far more than the Greek or Egyptian, and so I felt comfortable with Thor and the Avengers, and not so much with Wonder Woman and the JLA.

Perhaps because the Norse were more severe and less salacious - dunno.

But I was the GM of 4 separate campaigns over 15 years, so I tried hard to give the Players what they wanted to play - and then wove together the themes.

One player wanted to have an Egyptian deity background and thought all things Egyptian were cool. I gave him a "phoenix of vengeance" origin.

On player wanted to play a repentant lich who now sought to atone for his evil by doing good. I had him meet the Wandering Jew and he saw that immortality did not mean you have to be evil.

Another wanted to play a scientist who had been fatally irradiated by microwaves in a matter transmutation experiment. He became a Wildfire meets Iron Man PC.

Another wanted to a be a bionic agent for the US government. No problemo. His origin was the most "realistic".

The problem I had with making one event give all the powers to all the characters was that they all had the same origin, essentially.

"So what happened to you?"
"Wallll, there wuz this big bright LIGHT and then POWWW! I had th' ability to catch mahself on FIRE! Without any whiskey!! Whooooo wooo!"
"And you?"
"*ahem* ...The same...without the fire or the whiskey...."

This is not bad for a close-knit supergroup, like the Fantastic Four, but it makes everyone of "one cloth" and you cannot explore other thoughts and storylines as easily. Its not impossible, but its just harder work because you put this constraint on them.

After a while, the origin event becomes The Most Important Event in the Universe and all other events become measured by it.

"Before Crisis Event" - BCE

is now the

"Common Experience" - CE

You know, the more I think on that, something begins to sound very similar to me.

Maybe I'd like the Crisis Event more the NEXT campaign I run.

:th_coolio:

[Sketchpad]

I like the wide variation much more than a more narrow, common origin. It offers more options and allows for more adventure potential.

[AnotherSKip]

Pretty wide though I do have to sometimes telll myself "keep it open and stop explaining stuff!!!!"

[baldingfatman]

Hmm, having a wide background means greear chance of playing whatever it is you want to play. But, it also creates a lot more problems for the Gamemaster, as you suddenly have to deal with magic, alien super high-tech etc...

The narrow background is more restrictive for the players, but it also makes it easier for the GM.
Yeah, I agree with this. One of the things about most super-hero universes that take the "wide open" approach is you have to wonder, "If magic is real and gods and aliens and super-beings and super-technology have been around since the dawn of mankind, why hasn't it had more of an impact on human history?" You have to come up with explanations for why those factors didn't significantly change the "world outside your window", or else accept that it did and create an alternate history for your game universe.

If, on the other hand, you say that magic is not real, there are no gods, the Earth has never been visited by aliens, and all superhuman powers stem from a common event in 1982, then that creates far less of an alternate history problem for the GM.

I dont know any superhero universe thats missing any of those elements.
Have any read any of the Wild Cards books? Or a New Universe or Strikeforce: Morituri comic? Or seen the TV shoes Heroes or Mutant X?

All of them are lacking one or most of the elements I mentioned.

You can also have some common mechanism that is triggered in different ways.
True. In the Wild Cards universe, the common source is the alien nano-virus, but, after the initial epidemic, in remained latent in some folks until triggered by a stressful event.

I find I can't quite get behind the whole 60's Marvel farrago of atomic origins thing anymore,
The Marvel approach is one of the things that made me ask this question. Characters in the Marvel Universe powers from exposure to cosmic rays and atomic blasts and radioactive insects and chemical baths and transfusions of mongoose blood, etc., all without a unifying factor* to explain how they survive the events stronger than they were before. Even as a kid I had to wonder, "Doesn't anybody in the Marvel Universe ever just get cancer and die?"

* = Okay, they did later come up with the explanation of the Celestials tinkering with mankind's genetic code, but that was a retconn and always felt a little tacked on to me.

The problem I had with making one event give all the powers to all the characters was that they all had the same origin, essentially.

"So what happened to you?"
"Wallll, there wuz this big bright LIGHT and then POWWW! I had th' ability to catch mahself on FIRE! Without any whiskey!! Whooooo wooo!"
"And you?"
"*ahem* ...The same...without the fire or the whiskey...."

This is not bad for a close-knit supergroup, like the Fantastic Four, but it makes everyone of "one cloth" and you cannot explore other thoughts and storylines as easily.
I'm not sure I agree. I don't think the characters in Wild Cards or Strikeforce: Morituri or Heroes are any less interesting because they're origins are "one cloth" (ditto in the campaigns I have played in that used common origin).

What makes the characters interesting is who they were before the change and how the reacted to it, who they became afterwards.

After a while, the origin event becomes The Most Important Event in the Universe and all other events become measured by it.

"Before Crisis Event" - BCE

is now the

"Common Experience" - CE
Yeah, I agree with that.

I like the wide variation much more than a more narrow, common origin. It offers more options and allows for more adventure potential.
Yes, the GM does have more options in the "wide open" universe, but I think there's plenty of adventure potential either way. I have played in games with common origins and I never felt like the GM had difficulty coming up with adventures to challenge us.

And sometimes a narrow approach can open up new avenues of exploration for a GM. David Utter's Four Winds universe (which was a "common origin" universe) had a mechanic called "the vibe" that allowed good guys and bad guys to sense each other's "goodness/badness" thru intuition alone. One of the GMs in a spin-off played with this idea, creating a villain with the ability to send out false vibes, making good guys seem like bad guys and vice versa. It made for a pretty darned interesting adventure idea.

I've also played in a game based upon the Strikeforce: Morituri comic. One of the major adventures revolved around the realization that one of the PCs never succumbed to the fatal Morituri and trying to figure out why.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. I asked the question because I am thinking about retconning my default supers universe to a common event type. I find, however, that I am having a hard time letting go of some of the elements (particularly the presence of mythological gods).

[Stephane]

I've played in both kind.

I've loved both kind if GMed properly. Common-origin might be narrowing in scope, but it can lead to lots of interresting plots in itself.

Also even if you have a common origin, if it's far enough in the past, you can always introduce new sources as they are discovered. Hyper technology is always a common separate source even if there are only one of two supers able to generate this hyper technology. Once created, people can steal the technology and humans are excellent copycats.


While the Marvel style allows for greater PC generation, I find it to be a little sloppy. Not saying that it's not fun to play, but it tends to be a little sloppy-everything-goes situations.

[bishoplogan]

Have any read any of the Wild Cards books? Or a New Universe or Strikeforce: Morituri comic? Or seen the TV shoes Heroes or Mutant X?

All of them are lacking one or most of the elements I mentioned.

I stand corrected.:grin:
:sacool:

[Baelfyre]

It depends on the system and style of the game. I've run it both ways, and I've found that the open ended is far more complex on the GM's end but simpler on the players end.

Not that complex equals bad, but it is very different in the number of factors you need to keep track of at one time.

[SD Anderson]

Windhaven has a superhero game, and for whatever reason, it's campaigns rarely progress beyond sixth level, so we've been through a lot of campaigns.

For the longest while origins were what you as a player came up with. At one point he tried a "White Event" origin and it played out. One of the other folks in the group GMs Windhaven's game a fair amount and from that point on, he ran White Event origins for any game he started.

I'm a tad tired of White Event origins. There are concepts that don't fit in that well. It's hard to be a mage, frozen in stone form for centuries and were part of the landscape of a castle in what is now Slovakia, if all super beings came into existence last week in a UFO explosion that occured in downtown Manhatten.

I think the first time this other GM ran his White event, (UFO explosion btw) we had a player who insisted on being a military cyborg.

[Stephane]

I think the first time this other GM ran his White event, (UFO explosion btw) we had a player who insisted on being a military cyborg.
No offense, but that's a player that has no clue what the GM's trying. As a player, you have to give the reins to the GM.

It's like a GM starting a new fantasy campaign and there are no non-humans, because he wants to have something set in the middle ages and a player insists on playing an elf.

[Justice]

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. I asked the question because I am thinking about retconning my default supers universe to a common event type. I find, however, that I am having a hard time letting go of some of the elements (particularly the presence of mythological gods).

Now that I think about it, I had about three parallel "events" or methods by which my heroes would be empowered.

But they were more Motivational, than Mechanical - i.e. 'Why are they a hero?" not "How did they get powers?". Still, they blended over.

So the reason I am not a fan of "white event" origins is that Powers are thrust on a variety of people irregardless of their Motives. HOWEVER, NBC's Heroes and WildCards are notable examples of an excellent way this can be handled. Hmmmmmm...

Eh. I think it was just easier when I had different origins and power sources. I explored more and also, admittedly, sometimes let myself be bulldozed, but I could logically extrapolate faster than my Players so usually I buried them in their own origin if they go too uppity. ;)

Case in point: said repentant Lich was by far the most fearsome and powerful of our group once his action came. So one day, I decided he had some old friends who missed him. VERY VERY old friends.

5 Lichs showed up and took on the entire supergroup. It was nasty. Very nasty. You have guys with Invulnerability, Adaptation, HS B x 2 and Power Blast (+10 on damage) begin running for cover.

"This is ridiculous! We can't beat them!!"
"What - you think our lich didn't have any old buddies who DIDN'T like him converting?"

Ahhhhhh. A blessed campaign of super-science meets ancient magic.

Where was I?

Oh, yeah - our "events" that created PCs with powers.


Mental/Emotional Trauma - PC has had enough and uses his or her own mind to get powers. Rationalists trains body and gets a lot of hardware. Supernaturalists chase down spells and magical items. This covers everything from Batman to Adolph Hitler.

Physical Trauma - PC was killed, bitten, or "in the wrong place at the wrong time" and survived - with newfound powers and abilities. Covers Spider-Man to Dr. Manhatten.

Destiny - PC was chosen or bestowed great power by an entity or organization far greater than self - agreement is only thing necessary. Covers Green Lantern to Ghost Rider.


Now I don't know if that covers everything in the end - and many heroes are a blend of two - but it comes down to

1) You chase powers/abilities,
2) you find powers or
3) the powers find YOU.

In a Christian worldview, IMV, there is room for all three, its just that the supernatural can "trump" the natural in a moment. However, it is also the hardest to discover and comprehend, so it is also the rarest.

My Difficulties as GM with mythological gods
The hardest thing I had to deal with was the gods of myth and legend. I treated them as Marvel and DC does - long-lived superbeings with great powers and abilities, but never as actual Creator God nor as Redeemer Savior. They were just effectively "supermen" on another plane of existence and just as full of foibles and fractions as any earthly group.

This made them accessible for our heroes in certain genres, but I never was too comfortable with pressing the point if they empowered the heroes. "Wow - you were just empowered by the Egyptian god of vengeance." "Yeah!" "He demands you obey him and kill these villains." "I won't do it! I'll quit!"

Golly - do you think the Egyptian god will let him just do that? Especially since he gave him life? Ancient Middle-Eastern gods were really not known for their grace when defied...

The heroic fantasy exists to allow teenage boys use powers and abilities to change and impact a fictional world. It does not exist to teach faith or theology, even though we did touch that area in a few adventures.

ST:TOS simply made the mythological gods control freaks who loved to be worshiped and adored - basically supernatural tyrants whose powers and abilities were from ultra advanced science.

I can see that interpretation as valid, reserving the True Supernatural to Judeo-Christian God and His angels - including demons and their Prince.

It would be less messy that way, IMHO, but I've played it all.

[baldingfatman]

So the reason I am not a fan of "white event" origins is that Powers are thrust on a variety of people irregardless of their Motives.
That's not uncommon even in wide-open universes. The Fantastic Four, The Hulk, Spider-Man, The Flash... all had their powers thrust upon them. They did not seek them out, and motives were not an issue.

What made them heroes was what they decided to do with those powers once they were thrust upon them.

HOWEVER, NBC's Heroes and WildCards are notable examples of an excellent way this can be handled. Hmmmmmm...
I also like what David did in the Four Winds universe. Empowerment included not only super-human powers but also an enhanced sense of right and wrong. Heroes had a stronger desire to do right, villains had an enhanced sense of selfish entitlement (i.e.: I'm entitled to do whatever I want by virtue of my powers).

The hardest thing I had to deal with was the gods of myth and legend. I treated them as Marvel and DC does - long-lived superbeings with great powers and abilities, but never as actual Creator God nor as Redeemer Savior. They were just effectively "supermen" on another plane of existence and just as full of foibles and fractions as any earthly group.
That's pretty much how I treat them as well. I don't assume they were the actual creators of the universe. They can't be, since their stories conflict with one another. Odin cannot have created the Earth if Ra did it first, and vice versa.

In fact, in the current version of my universe (the one I am thinking about doing away with) the legends of the gods were inspired by a group of humans who were empowered by a magical event c. 12000 BC. They weren't even a separate race (as they are in the Marvel Universe), just an early example of super-heroes and villains, most of whom were wiped out by another magical event a few centuries later and survive only as myths.

This made them accessible for our heroes in certain genres, but I never was too comfortable with pressing the point if they empowered the heroes. "Wow - you were just empowered by the Egyptian god of vengeance." "Yeah!" "He demands you obey him and kill these villains." "I won't do it! I'll quit!"
I don't think I would put a PC in that position. If a player decided he wanted his character to have powers stemming from or otherwise related to some mythic being, we'd sit down and discuss during character creation exactly what that means, so there wouldn't be this kind of surprise down the road.

[Ja§on]

My main superhero setting looks like a wide open one at first glance, but part of the metaplot/backstage of that universe involves the way that various power types originate, and what rules govern them.

[baldingfatman]

My main superhero setting looks like a wide open one at first glance, but part of the metaplot/backstage of that universe involves the way that various power types originate, and what rules govern them.
That's a good approach and one close to my original approach, which is what I think I am going to stick with.

One variation I am going with is that there was a common weird event, in 1982 (wanna guess why I chose 1982?), that empowered most of the superhumans currently running around. There were superhumans before then, but they were very few in number and tended to hide their activities from the general public (with the aid of various world governments) and so details of their activities remain shrouded in mystery to this day.

So, most of the general public believes there were no super-beings before 1982, and many believe that magic, aliens, etc. are not real, that super-characters who claim to be sorcerers, aliens, time travelers, the gods of ancient myth, etc., are either making false claims or are just plain insane. However, there are some who know the truth, that all of those things are real.

Even those who know the truth, however, do not realize that there is a behind-the-scenes meta-source for all superhuman abilities, including magic, govering how they operate.

[bishoplogan]

That's a good approach and one close to my original approach, which is what I think I am going to stick with.

One variation I am going with is that there was a common weird event, in 1982 (wanna guess why I chose 1982?), that empowered most of the superhumans currently running around. There were superhumans before then, but they were very few in number and tended to hide their activities from the general public (with the aid of various world governments) and so details of their activities remain shrouded in mystery to this day.

So, most of the general public believes there were no super-beings before 1982, and many believe that magic, aliens, etc. are not real, that super-characters who claim to be sorcerers, aliens, time travelers, the gods of ancient myth, etc., are either making false claims or are just plain insane. However, there are some who know the truth, that all of those things are real.

Even those who know the truth, however, do not realize that there is a behind-the-scenes meta-source for all superhuman abilities, including magic, govering how they operate.OK, sounds X-Fileish.WHY 1982?:sawink2:

[baldingfatman]

OK, sounds X-Fileish.WHY 1982?:sawink2:
Hmmm... It's not really supposed to sound X-Fileish. That's not the tone I was going for. I'll have to think about that.

1982 was the year I bought V&V (which was also the year of publication for the 2nd edition, IIRC), which was the first super-hero game I ever played.

[bishoplogan]

Hmmm... It's not really supposed to sound X-Fileish. That's not the tone I was going for. I'll have to think about that.

1982 was the year I bought V&V (which was also the year of publication for the 2nd edition, IIRC), which was the first super-hero game I ever played.
X-Fileish, no no no thats a good thing.:clap:
do the heroes know the truth or will they slowly uncover it?
oh okay 1982.
:sacool:

[baldingfatman]

do the heroes know the truth or will they slowly uncover it?
The players are allowed to create whatever character type they want for most of my campaigns, so they know that much of the truth. And if they choose to create an alien or sorcerer or whatever, that character knows that much of the truth as well (whether the other PCs accept those characters are what they claim to be or dismiss them as wackjobs is up to the individual players).

The final truth about the common source behind all powers is currently unknown to any player characters, and to any of my players as well. I may one day run a campaign where the characters discover the truth, but that's not something I am in any hurry to do. It's enough for ME to know that there's a common source, what it is, and how it would effect the mechanics for any given power.

[bishoplogan]

The players are allowed to create whatever character type they want for most of my campaigns, so they know that much of the truth. And if they choose to create an alien or sorcerer or whatever, that character knows that much of the truth as well (whether the other PCs accept those characters are what they claim to be or dismiss them as wackjobs is up to the individual players).

The final truth about the common source behind all powers is currently unknown to any player characters, and to any of my players as well. I may one day run a campaign where the characters discover the truth, but that's not something I am in any hurry to do. It's enough for ME to know that there's a common source, what it is, and how it would effect the mechanics for any given power.
sounds good:th_dblthumb2:
:sasmokin:

[bishoplogan]

I played in a V&V game where we all played ourselves for like the fifth or sixth time.
This took place like five years after we all finished HS.

We're in a wide open world and we have one main GM, then you have me and two others that sub.

So after about two years it occurs to me that we have no origin.

Everybody has powers but me I have just skills(like almost all my charactors:th_dblthumb2:) but nobody ever questioned why.

So that was the bases of my sub plot common source.

A semi powerful and well connected cabal wanting to create thier own group of human weapons. Choose to test it on minority races by injecting a potion into 2-4 month old fetuses Code named ADAMS and EVES.

They prayd to a Demon.The potion was a potion of chaos which is why each person developed different powers.

The DEMON wanted to cause a holocaust and have these people rule the world in his image.

As the children grew they were secretly being watched and manipulated to come together by the Cabals agents known as Cains and Ables.

Also as the children grew the Cabal started to develop tech armor called Samson as insurance for any of the kids that tried to rebel.
Of course things didnt go the way they planned.
:sasmokin:

[baldingfatman]

I played in a V&V game where we all played ourselves for like the fifth or sixth time.

So after about two years it occurs to me that we have no origin.

As the children grew they were secretly being watched and manipulated to come together by the Cabals agents known as Cains and Ables.
We did something somewhat similar. The second time we decided to play ourselves as characters, we were still in high school.

This was in a wide-open universe, and our characters all had a wide range of abilities and origins (a guy with hi-tech armor who was experimented on by aliens, a guy with magic spells that came from an extra-dimensional implant, an illusion-projecting mutant, a master samurai swordsman, and a psychic with a demon's soul laid over his own).

Plus we had some NPCs based upon people we know who also developed powers, with equally far-ranging origins.

About 6 months into the campaign, it occurred to the GM just how improbable it was that a bunch of high school friends all just happened to develop superhuman powers at the same time with no common origin thread.

So he ran an adventure that ultimately revealed that our lives and the lives of our ancestors were deliberately manipulated by a group of demon-worshipping alien sorcerers specifically so we would develop the power sets we did and come together as a team. They wanted us to run The Gauntlet, an extra-dimensional death maze, at the end up which was The Ultimate Weapon in the Universe. Each one of us had a specific power that enabled us to overcome a specific trap in the death maze.

Needless to say, things did not turn out as the alien cabal intended.

[bishoplogan]

We did something somewhat similar. The second time we decided to play ourselves as characters, we were still in high school.

This was in a wide-open universe, and our characters all had a wide range of abilities and origins (a guy with hi-tech armor who was experimented on by aliens, a guy with magic spells that came from an extra-dimensional implant, an illusion-projecting mutant, a master samurai swordsman, and a psychic with a demon's soul laid over his own).

Plus we had some NPCs based upon people we know who also developed powers, with equally far-ranging origins.

About 6 months into the campaign, it occurred to the GM just how improbable it was that a bunch of high school friends all just happened to develop superhuman powers at the same time with no common origin thread.

So he ran an adventure that ultimately revealed that our lives and the lives of our ancestors were deliberately manipulated by a group of demon-worshipping alien sorcerers specifically so we would develop the power sets we did and come together as a team. They wanted us to run The Gauntlet, an extra-dimensional death maze, at the end up which was The Ultimate Weapon in the Universe. Each one of us had a specific power that enabled us to overcome a specific trap in the death maze.

Needless to say, things did not turn out as the alien cabal intended.

Common source in a wide open world.
Yeah Cabals are always good to use for a mass origin.:smilie_sn:
:sawink2: