Character Profile: Daring Chance

[hidufel]

Daring Chance

Fast Hero 4

Male
Height: 5'8"
Weight: 150 lbs

Str: 9
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 12

Saves:
Fort: 2
Ref: 4
Will: 3

Hit Points: 8+3d8(5+5+5=15)+4=27
Action Points: 17-4=13 (starting) -2 (second Session) +7 (4th level) = 18

Occupation: Investigative; Permanent class skills - Gather Information, Investigate, feat - Personal Firearms Proficiency.

Feats: MOS Intelligence (Bluff, Spot, Sense Motive, class skills) Two Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Light Armor Proficiency

Skill Ranks(without stat adjustments): Tumble 7, Sense Motive 7, Sleight of hand 6, Profession 6, perception 7, Knowledge (Streetwise) 3, investigate 3, Gather Information 4, hide 3, Drive 3, Bluff 2, read write lang (Japanese,) speak Language (Japanese)
Skill Ranks (with stat adjustments and misc): Tumble 9, Sense Motive 9, Sleight of hand 8, Profession 8, perception 9, Knowledge (Streetwise) 4, investigate 4, Gather Information 5, hide 5, Drive 5, Bluff 3, read write lang (Japanese,) speak Language (Japanese)

Talents: Evasion, Uncanny Dodge 1


BAB +3: Melee +2, Ranged +6 (+7 with Glock 20, +8 within 30') With Two Weapon Fighting, -2 per attack.

Level progression: Gunslinger 5th

[Origen]

So you're going to be our face man/charisma guy. That's awesome.

[Chimaera]

So you're going to be our face man/charisma guy. That's awesome.

Indeed. You know that with a name like Daring Chance, he's totally rocking a Prince Albert... :D

[Origen]

Indeed. You know that with a name like Daring Chance, he's totally rocking a Prince Albert... :D

Mook 1: Let's take him! He doesn't have any weapons!
Mook 2: Wait! He may not have any weapons, but that doesn't mean he's disarmed.

[hidufel]

face guy, with a 12 cha!

ROFL!

[Origen]

face guy, with a 12 cha!

ROFL!

You have a Bluff of +4, and a Sense Motive of +7. My Bluff is -1, and my Sense Motive is +0.

[Origen]

Question, hidufel.

Did you want to be MORE of a face man, in terms of Charisma skills? Because 6 ranks of Survival and plugging 6 cross-class ranks into Bluff seems a little odd for the way I see you playing this character.

Did I misunderstand what you were trying to build?

[hidufel]

6 ranks survival and 3 ranks of bluff (and 6 ranks knowledge aracne,) are required skill ranks for the explorer advanced class in the HK Modern that Arch and Chim turned me onto.

I don't envision daring as a face man, per se, but as someone who gets into and out of trouble easily, and someone who's almost fearless.

i figured sense motive and bluff fit that, and i liked the intuition part of dedicated hero.

edit: gosh my typing is atrocious

[hidufel]

id also liked the gunslinger advanced class... but the pre requisite skills for that are obnoxious, on a dedicated heroes class skills... and i dont want to lose intuition by taking levels of fast hero.

[Origen]

Are there any three skills that you wish were NOT cross-class skills?

Like, Bluff and X and Y?

[hidufel]

Tumble fits well, so does slight of hand... being quick with the fingers and hands helps... and are both pre reqs for gunslinger.

As i mentioned before there really was no direct advanced class that fit perfectly for what id imagined for Daring chance, save for possibly the gunslinger. Having huge cross class skill requirements sort of put that one out of reach. Explorer also fits well with the idea of intrepid adventurer, so i decided to work for that one.

whats interesting is the bab for explorer is better then gunslinger! id expect them reversed, really.

[Origen]

Tumble fits well, so does slight of hand... being quick with the fingers and hands helps... and are both pre reqs for gunslinger.

As i mentioned before there really was no direct advanced class that fit perfectly for what id imagined for Daring chance, save for possibly the gunslinger. Having huge cross class skill requirements sort of put that one out of reach. Explorer also fits well with the idea of intrepid adventurer, so i decided to work for that one.

whats interesting is the bab for explorer is better then gunslinger! id expect them reversed, really.

Is Gunslinger what you'd rather do?

And yeah, I hear you on the BAB thing. Martial Artist is better than Soldier? Zuh?

[hidufel]

In a short answer, yes.

Long answer? its not as easy as that though... i can see how taking fast hero might be better for that, to allow me to get there, but its weird in that gunslinger doesnt seem to lend itself well to the dedicated class. getting a true representation of what id like for the character and one playable on paper is a tough one to do...

[Origen]

In a short answer, yes.

Long answer? its not as easy as that though... i can see how taking fast hero might be better for that, to allow me to get there, but its weird in that gunslinger doesnt seem to lend itself well to the dedicated class. getting a true representation of what id like for the character and one playable on paper is a tough one to do...

2 possibilities:

1. Go Dedicated Hero, and take something like MOS: Intelligence. Ask Arch if you can have Sleight of Hand as a class skill for Intelligence. If you are trained at doing drops and smuggling small objects, I think it's a reasonable argument and I was actually surprised it wasn't in there.

2. Go Fast Hero, but take an MOS feat that gives you a few more skills that you wanted. My occupation and my MOS: Rifleman feat were what made my character nearly perfect. The feat cost of three additional permanent class skills seems about right.

Note that MOS feats don't necessarily mean military training. It can be police training, or intelligence training.

[hidufel]

?? really? for some reason i just thought those mos stuff was part of being a soldier.

dedicated hero has to be where i want... its got that empathy/intuition. time to take another look at that stuff ou sent me earlier this year. Id forgone looking at cause military wasnt where i want to be background wise...

[Origen]

?? really? for some reason i just thought those mos stuff was part of being a soldier.

dedicated hero has to be where i want... its got that empathy/intuition. time to take another look at that stuff ou sent me earlier this year. Id forgone looking at cause military wasnt where i want to be background wise...

It's part of the reason the classes are called "Leadership Training" or "Assault Training". You can be a SWAT police officer, and take levels in "Assault Training" because yes, that's what you have.

Yes, MOS is technically an army term, but Charles Rice wanted to give people the latitude to create military, paramilitary and law enforcement characters equally well.

I'd look into it, if I were you.

[Archaelos]

I'm having a little trouble following where you want your character to go. Any fictional character from a book, tv show or movie you could compare him to?

[Chimaera]

Also, there are many, man ways to realize an intutive, empathic character, far more ways than there are to realize combat effectiveness. BAB progressions in d20 Modern are pretty low, even for some surprising classes (I myself had no idea the Martial Artist had a better BAB than a Soldier). But being insightful and charming is more a matter of stats, feats and skills. I'd look to your class choices for your BAB and use feats and such to articulate the rest.

[hidufel]

I think the problem is, i dont think im explaining well enough what im going for... also, i may be trying to fit too much in, and especially around, him. Perhaps US marshal might be throwing things off as well...

initially, i thought of daring chance, as a seat of the pants adventurer, fearless, quick to act yet not impulsive. Cool under fire, someone living by his own luck. Being able to read people and his situation. Thats why the intuition part of dedicated hero appeals. There isnt any particular character im trying to emulate. the whole idea was born from the name itself... someone daring at chance.

I'll post some more thoughts as i can compose them.

[Chimaera]

Sounds more like a Charismatic Hero to me...

[Origen]

What do you want him to be able to do, hidufel?

Don't describe it in game terms. What do you see him doing when you imagine him?

[hidufel]

I'm having a little trouble following where you want your character to go. Any fictional character from a book, tv show or movie you could compare him to?

I think the problem is, i dont think im explaining well enough what im going for... also, i may be trying to fit too much in, and especially around, him. Perhaps US marshal might be throwing things off as well...

initially, i thought of daring chance, as a seat of the pants adventurer, fearless, quick to act yet not impulsive. Cool under fire, someone living by his own luck. Being able to read people and his situation. Thats why the intuition part of dedicated hero appeals. There isnt any particular character im trying to emulate. the whole idea was born from the name itself... someone daring at chance.

I'll post some more thoughts as i can compose them.

I take that back... there is a possible character example, from the Japanese film "Returner (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0339579/)". Takeshi Kaneshiro's character in that film, Miyamoto is a pretty good example of a lot of the action i imagine... and a close archetype.
heres a link to the trailer for it. http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi3449684249/ you can see some

I dont necessarily see him as a hitman, like in the movie, but i imagine being able to take care of himself, and the competence he had at doing what he does.
What do you want him to be able to do, hidufel?

Don't describe it in game terms. What do you see him doing when you imagine him?

Id like to be able to wield and use guns as though they were extension of himself... sense danger in time to react to it. i imagine him fairly good at digging in to things, and able to handle himself in tough situations. heck another thought that occured to me... bruce willis's character in last man standing. Kind of an old film noir detective with good agility and awesome skill with a handgun.

any of that make sense? heck maybe i should just scrap dedicated and make him a fast hero....

[hidufel]

hmmm. I wanted a few skills and intution out of dedicated... with mos intelligence and a change of background i can get the skills i want... and intuition can sort of be approximated with uncanny dodge...

adventurer: survival, spot, personal firearms proficiency

mos feat at first level, investigate, gather information, sense motive

fast hero 3, evasion, uncanny dodge... (starting to look a lot like chimaeras char... though with guns instead of martial arts...)

gunslinger at 5th

[Chimaera]

Looks good. ;)

[Origen]

mos feat at first level, investigate, gather information, sense motive

Which MOS feat?

[hidufel]

MOS: Intelligence.

I also updated the first post, for character sheet purposes.

[Archaelos]

MOS: Intelligence doesn't offer Investigate as an option, btw. MOS: Law Enforcement does, but lacks Gather Information.

[Archaelos]

Occupation: Investigative would allow Gather Info and Investigate. (And PFP as a feat).

MOS: Intelligence can allow Bluff, Spot, and Sense Motive.

I think that gives you the skill set you're looking for.

[Mouser]

Another immediate vibe I got when reading your description is that of Indiana Jones.

[hidufel]

Occupation: Investigative would allow Gather Info and Investigate. (And PFP as a feat).

MOS: Intelligence can allow Bluff, Spot, and Sense Motive.

I think that gives you the skill set you're looking for.

i have no idea why i thought investigate was part of the MOS Intelligence.

thanks for the catch, and thanks for the quick fix. yeah that should do it.

[Origen]

Don't forget that your MOS also expands the scope of your bonus feats. It doesn't GIVE you a bonus feat, but every time you get a bonus feat from a basic class or advanced class, you expand the list of possible feat choices to include those of your MOS.

[hidufel]

Born Katsuro Daring Chance, to a retired American GI father and a Japanese Mother, Daring grew up in Ravensgate Oregon. His father worked as a cop in the local police force, giving some inspiration from that for his later career in law enforcement. His mother chose his name, Katsuro which means "victorious son" but he often chose to go by his middle name when he was younger, and it now suits him better well into his adult life.

A risk taker by nature, Daring is quick to jump into a fray, often fearless in his approach to obstacles and in danger. This has gotten him into trouble more then a few times, and has even led to a few scraps with local gangs.

Following his fathers interest in law enforcement, he attended throckmorton ploytechnic, and got a degree in criminal justice. Joined the police academy, and left Ravensgate for Portland where he worked for a few years on the Portland PD. Performing well in his field Daring applied for and was accepted into a program in the CIA and trained in intelligence. Later moving into the US Marshals Service.

While apprehending a federal fugitive, Daring stumbled (or crashed into, as it were) an active summoning circle a group of demon worshipers were trying to put together. The strange symbols on the ground and the invocations the hooded figures were chanting were quite foreign to his current understanding... of course interupting what they were working the, group fled, but ever since then he began to suspect strange things happening around...

[hidufel]

Following Origen's Example, preserving an old version of Daring Chance... while updating original post to reflect current character...
Daring Chance

Fast Hero 3

Male
Height: 5'8"
Weight: 150 lbs

Str: 9
Dex: 15
Con: 12
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 12

Saves:
Fort: 2
Ref: 4
Will: 3

Hit Points: 8+10+3
Action Points: 17 - ?

Occupation: Investigative; Permanent class skills - Gather Information, Investigate, feat - Personal Firearms Proficiency.

Feats: MOS Intelligence (Bluff, Spot, Sense Motive, class skills) Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Defensive Martial Arts

Skill Ranks(without stat adjustments): Tumble 6, Sense Motive 6, Sleight of hand 6, Profession 5, perception 6, Knowledge (Streetwise) 3, investigate 2, Gather Information 3, hide 3, Drive 3, Bluff 2, read write lang (Japanese,) speak Language (Japanese)
Skill Ranks (with stat adjustments and misc): Tumble 8, Sense Motive 8, Sleight of hand 8, Profession 7, perception 8, Knowledge (Streetwise) 4, investigate 3, Gather Information 4, hide 5, Drive 5, Bluff 3, read write lang (Japanese,) speak Language (Japanese)

Talents: Evasion, Uncanny Dodge 1


BAB +2: Melee +1, Ranged +4 (+5 with Glock 20, +6 within 30').

4th level stat bump: Dex
4th level feat: Elusive Target
Level progression: Fast Hero to 4th level, Gunslinger 5th

[hidufel]

OK!

I'll be working on bringing Daring up to level 9 and having him ready to go if there is need, so as part of that preperation, i'm looking at several options.

I noticed the light armor proficiency has been rolled into a bonus feet for the fast hero, so that frees up one bonus feet... I'm thinking of taking the TOA armor feat and going for the Achilles armor.

Also, is the material in blood and fists master edition available for feats and class selections?

Also, is it feasible to structure a martial art around the use of firearms?

IIRC, i was going for gunslinger and two weapon fighting, but the kight of the accord looks like a really fun prestige class, I'm considering that class. the bab req of 5 requires either fast hero 7, or possbily two levels in a class like strong hero that gives a +2 bab for two levels...

I am tempted for the next three levels to be fast hero in any case, deffensive roll and opportunist look mighty tasty.

any thoughts on character upgrades?

[hidufel]

so i could take the gun-fu style feat and go for martial arts master, level 2, then take three levels of knight of the accords...

[Origen]

Honestly, Two-Gun Fu isn't going to serve you very well in this game. Right off the bat, you're going to take -2/-2 on your attacks. You're mostly reserved to handguns. And even if you use the JX-series pistol, that's 3d6+3 damage, for an average of 13.5 points of damage.

Now, imagine yourself facing two demons. (As I did, last session.) Each has DR, which cuts a slice off the top of both of your attacks. I'm going to GUESS that each had at least 10 points of DR that I couldn't bypass.

I was wielding a JX-series shotgun, with Quick Reload. I did an autofire of flechette bundles at point blank for 12d8+3 damage (Reflex save for half).

I got two attacks, with a reload for free.

Let's assume, for a moment, that the monster who survived that barrage made both of its saves. (Because that's how much dice hate me.) I did, with two attacks, 24d8 + 6 - 20 points of damage. I think I rolled one attack in the 50s, and one attack in the 60s. Minus the 20 for DR (at least), that's over a hundred points of damage.

He was still standing, and pissed.

Do you really want to plink on guys like that for 3d6 + 3 - 10 points of damage?

[hidufel]

yeah i hear ya. i was actually thinking of dropping the two gun fu idea... as you describe, its probably not worth it.

i was thinking more of making the gun-fu style work for one weapon. not necesarily the pistol, perhaps the shotgun?

i'm trying to decide if its really worth going fast7 KoA2 vs fast4 MaM2 KoA3

i get defensive roll and opportunist, +3 to defense an addition +4 fort, +5 ref, and +4 will for the former, vs +4 defense, +6 fort, +6 ref, and +3 will for the later...

[hidufel]

i am also entertaining alternative character ideas as well... darings original character might be a little sub optimal.

[Origen]

If you're really sold on the Two-Gun Fu idea, I'd talk to Arch and see if he knows of an alternative prestige class with TWF and a +1 BAB per level advancement. Do NOT water down your advancement with Fast Hero plus Gunslinger plus something else, because Gunslinger and Fast Hero both start with +0 BAB.

It doesn' matter how many bullets you're shooting or how many guns you have if you miss.

Perhaps he could develop something for you, or you can work on something with him.

[hidufel]

i dropped the idea of gunslinger, and two gun-fu.

Martial arts master from blood and fists master edition has a +1bab per level progression, i could take that for two levels, giving me the necessary +5 for KoA.

that would require i take the feat gun-fu style... but the gun fu could be applied to any firearm, i think. the only issue is the feat i invested in two weapon fighting... which isnt optimal with this game especially at the encounters you guys are facing. I'd also think about adjustin g initial stat choices too, if possible, as well as a talent selection.

[Chimaera]

Tracer is a +1 BAB/level class with useful abilities.

[Archaelos]

that would require i take the feat gun-fu style...

You seem quite set on "Gun-fu" style, but what is it you're trying to get out of that? It primarily gives you flexibility for unarmed, melee attacks. It doesn't do much for ranged combat, unless I'm missing something.

[Chimaera]

You seem quite set on "Gun-fu" style, but what is it you're trying to get out of that? It primarily gives you flexibility for unarmed, melee attacks. It doesn't do much for ranged combat, unless I'm missing something.

Gun-fu sucks, to put it bluntly. It offers nothing of value, IMV.

[hidufel]

i mention gun -fu primarily as a way of bringing the use of the fiream as a martial art... (and to try to stick with the original idea i had with daring) and as a martial art style it is required for the martial arts master class... one that im looking at taking to springboard into the Knight of the accord.

the only benefit i can see is that it allows the use of the zen focus feat (which i would have to take, as well as zen) and apply that to my ranged attacks, rather then melee attacks. in that regard it could be of use, but requires two extra feats, so not as useful as say, teamwork. (i probably wont spend the two feats to take zen and zen focus, their better spent elsewhere)

so yeah i agree, not that useful, but needed if i want to take the martial arts master. good saves, the dodge mastery is nice, good bab, good def bonus...

[hidufel]

also arch, can i do a slight re-order of the ability scores, and switch a feat since im not focused on the two weapon fighting style?

I'm looking at int 14 cha 10 (instead of 12 and 12), and then taking the feat from blood and fists that adds my int to defense bonus...

[Origen]

hidufel, they did a 5-level write-up of the Tempest in The Complete Adventurer, I think. You might want to see if you can modify that class so that eventually you can execute missile attacks at -0/-0.

(Pending Arch's approval, of course.)

[Archaelos]

i mention gun -fu primarily as a way of bringing the use of the fiream as a martial art...

I have to admit I'm confused here. This seems circular. The masteries and bonuses offered by MAM only make sense for a martial artist...so I'm lost. If you want to be a UA fighter, that's fine, I'm just muddled in tracking the reasons for picking up that class / feat combination. It seems at odds with your interest in Daring as a ranged combatant.


also arch, can i do a slight re-order of the ability scores, and switch a feat since im not focused on the two weapon fighting style?

I'd rather not change ability scores. They're part of what makes the character that character. As for feats, you can shift any feat that you've not used (or that proved unusable/unuseful). 2-Weapon fighting seems pretty integral to the Daring Chance concept. If you're looking to dump that, I might suggest just creating a new character that better fits your concept from the ground up.

[hidufel]

I have to admit I'm confused here. This seems circular. The masteries and bonuses offered by MAM only make sense for a martial artist...so I'm lost. If you want to be a UA fighter, that's fine, I'm just muddled in tracking the reasons for picking up that class / feat combination. It seems at odds with your interest in Daring as a ranged combatant.

well only partially... the gun-fu in blood and fists does have ranged feats for selection in it, but the masteries are primarily melee oriented. my only real interstin the martial arts master is that it has a good bab progression, and two of three saves are good. the class would allow taking of knight of the accord one level sooner, allowing for the second talent... i did a preliminary selection of just fast hero 7, then knight of the accord 2, though, but looking at the initail skill selections lead me to your next point...


I'd rather not change ability scores. They're part of what makes the character that character. As for feats, you can shift any feat that you've not used (or that proved unusable/unuseful). 2-Weapon fighting seems pretty integral to the Daring Chance concept. If you're looking to dump that, I might suggest just creating a new character that better fits your concept from the ground up.
This may be the best option... i see that what i want for a character concept now does seem to be a bit different then before... what i seem to be trying to do is shoehorn in a different concept into the original mold i cast.

I'm still looking at a ranged combatant, (i was thinking someone with a focus on the jx-25) but something more mystically touched might be more effective, cross classing knowledge arcane was expensive, not to mention the tactics as well. initial feat selection and ability scores seem to be wonky too.

I think im going to try to come up with different character as well, from the ground up and see what fits best.

[hidufel]

Fast Hero 7, Knight of the Accord 2

Male
Height: 5'8"
Weight: 150 lbs

Str: 9
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 13
Wis: 14
Cha: 12

Saves:
Fort: 2+3+1=6
Ref: 4+3+3=10
Will: 2+3+2=7

Hit Points: 8+8d8(40)+18=57
Action Points: 18 (4th lvl)+ 43 (5-9th)= 61
Defense: 10+6(FH)+2(KoA)+3(dex)+1(int)+3(Achilles Armor)=25
Occupation: Investigative; Permanent class skills - Gather Information, Investigate, feat - Personal Firearms Proficiency.

Feats: MOS Intelligence (Bluff, Spot, Sense Motive, class skills,) Teamwork (JTFPR), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Tactical Operations Armor Proficiency, Light Armor Proficiency (bonus fast hero,) JX-series weapon Prof (free virtual,) W. Focus Assault rifle, Advanced Firearms Proficiency, Anointed of the Accord, Analytical Combat, Archaic Weapons Proficiency (Knight of the Accord)

Skill Ranks(without stat adjustments): Tumble 12, Sense Motive 12, Sleight of hand 6, Profession 6, perception 12, Knowledge (Streetwise) 3, Knowledge (Tactics) 5, Knowledge (Arcane) 5, investigate 6, Gather Information 6, hide 8, Drive 3, Bluff 12, read write lang (Japanese,) speak Language (Japanese)

Skill Ranks (with stat adjustments and misc Tumble 15, Sense Motive 14, Sleight of hand 9, Profession 8, perception 14, Knowledge (Streetwise) 5, Knowledge (Tactics) 7, Knowledge (Arcane) 7, investigate 8, Gather Information 8, hide 11, Drive 5, Bluff 12, read write lang (Japanese,) speak Language (Japanese)

Talents: Evasion, Uncanny Dodge 1, Opportunist, Defensive Roll, With all Haste - +10’ movement speed

BAB +7/+2: Melee +6/+1, Ranged +10/+5 (+13 with JX-25 Assault Rifle, +14 within 30')

[Origen]

cross classing knowledge arcane was expensive, not to mention the tactics as well. initial feat selection and ability scores seem to be wonky too.

I'm trying to find where it was said, but for members of the JTFPR/Knights/Etc., Knowledge - Arcane is a permanent class skill for all of us.

If you have problems with initial feat selection, skills, etc. it is also helpful to work up a proposal for Arch. He is amenable to story-based builds that make sense.

[Baelfyre]

Don't see any stealth there, and that's a pretty vital skill for this group.

[Chimaera]

Don't see any stealth there, and that's a pretty vital skill for this group.

He's got "hide" in there. But yeah, I would up the ranks on that.

[Origen]

Will save is good. That's pretty key.

Stealth (Hide/Move silently combined, as per the House Rules) is absolutely key. It should be maxed before all other skills, with Perception coming in a close second.

[Origen]

You're also missing a point somewhere:

Str: 9 (cost 1)
Dex: 16 (cost 6 + 1 4th level + 1 8th level)
Con: 12 (cost 4)
Int: 13 (cost 5)
Wis: 14 (cost 6)
Cha: 12 (cost 4)

Total: 26

[Chimaera]

You're also missing a point somewhere:

Str: 9 (cost 1)
Dex: 16 (cost 6 + 1 4th level + 1 8th level)
Con: 12 (cost 4)
Int: 13 (cost 5)
Wis: 14 (cost 6)
Cha: 12 (cost 4)

Total: 26

Yup, that Int can be pumped to a full 14.

[Chimaera]

Furthermore...

Str 9
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 10

This is also a 27 point initial array, one to which you can still apply your stat bumps. I might be being silly, but I don't see a +1 modifier to Charisma-based skills to be all that relevant. Meanwhile, you can have +2 (instead of +1) to HP/lvl, Fort saves and Con-based skills.

(I'm still kicking myself, to be honest, for not simply taking the 9 in Charisma when I made Niko -- it totally fits him in concept and I'd be sitting on an 18 Dex right now, not a 17 -- I tend to think that the above is more or less and optimal score distribution for this point-level and game: 4 14s, a 10 and a 9.)

[Origen]

Furthermore...

Str 9
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 10

This is also a 27 point initial array, one to which you can still apply your stat bumps. I might be being silly, but I don't see a +1 modifier to Charisma-based skills to be all that relevant. Meanwhile, you can have +2 (instead of +1) to HP/lvl, Fort saves and Con-based skills.

Yeah, Massive Damage Saves are NOT uncommon in this game. I concur with that assessment.

[hidufel]

Furthermore...

Str 9
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 10

This is also a 27 point initial array, one to which you can still apply your stat bumps. I might be being silly, but I don't see a +1 modifier to Charisma-based skills to be all that relevant. Meanwhile, you can have +2 (instead of +1) to HP/lvl, Fort saves and Con-based skills.

(I'm still kicking myself, to be honest, for not simply taking the 9 in Charisma when I made Niko -- it totally fits him in concept and I'd be sitting on an 18 Dex right now, not a 17 -- I tend to think that the above is more or less and optimal score distribution for this point-level and game: 4 14s, a 10 and a 9.)
this is what i would have adjusted the stats for daring to... and placing the 4th and 8th level bumps into dex. the stats look good all around.

[hidufel]

I had an inkling of an idea to run a character that was a native american, and his background would come from the Iroquois Shaman signatories of the accord. Making him a demon hunter sounded kind of interesting, so I would look for being a knight crusader... the talents demon hunter and slayer sound cool. strong 3/fast 3/KoA3...

[hidufel]

actually... fast 3 tracer 3 Knight of the accord 3 looks more efficient.

[hidufel]

Fast Hero 3, Tracer 3, Knight of the Accord 3


Str: 9
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 10

Saves:
Fort: 1+2+3+2=8
Ref: 2+3+3+3=11
Will: 1+1+3+2=7

Hit Points: 8+8d8(40)+18=66
Action Points: 18 (4th lvl)+ 43 (5-9th)= 61
Defense: 10+4(FH)+2(Tracer)+2(KoA)+2(dex)+8(Lancelot Armor)=28
Occupation: Investigative; Permanent class skills – Sense Motive, Investigate, feat - Personal Firearms Proficiency.

Feats: MOS Rifleman (Survival, Stealth (+1), Perception class skills,) Teamwork (JTFPR), Track, Precise Shot, Tactical Operations Armor Proficiency, Light/medium Armor Proficiency (bonus fast hero,) JX-series weapon Prof (free virtual,) Advanced Firearms Proficiency, Anointed of the Accord, Heavy Combat Armor Proficiency, Archaic Weapons Proficiency (Knight of the Accord)

Skill Ranks (without stat adjustments): Gather Information 10 (cha), Investigate 10 (Int), Knowledge Arcane 12 (int), Knowledge Streetwise 10 (Int), Knowledge Tactics 5 (Int), Perception 12 (wis), Sense Motive 12 (wis), Stealth 12 ((wis) +1), Survival 12 (wis), Tumble 12 (dex), Read / Speak Language English, French, Iroquis.

Skill Ranks (with stat adjustments and misc): Gather Information 10 (cha), Investigate 12 (Int), Knowledge Arcane 14 (int), Knowledge Streetwise 12 (Int), Knowledge Tactics 7 (Int), Perception 14 (wis), Sense Motive 14 (wis), Stealth 15 ((wis) +1), Survival 14 (wis), Tumble 15 (dex), Read / Speak Language English, French, Iroquis.

Fast hero Talents: Evasion, Opportunist
Tracer Talents: Target Species (Demon), Urban Tracking, Swift Strike +1d6
Knight of the Accords Talents: Demon Hunter, Archaic Weapons Proficiency, Slayer



BAB +8/+3: Melee +7/+2, Ranged +11/+6 (+13 with JX-25 Assault Rifle, +15 with teamwork)


thoughts?

[Origen]

Looks good. A couple of things:

1. Light and Medium Armor are separate proficiencies, yet you seem to have lumped them together.
2. Advanced Firearms Proficiency and Burstfire are folded into the same feat because of house rules.

Otherwise, looks good.

[hidufel]

Looks good. A couple of things:

1. Light and Medium Armor are separate proficiencies, yet you seem to have lumped them together.
2. Advanced Firearms Proficiency and Burstfire are folded into the same feat because of house rules.



i lumped them together because i was a lazy typer, they are both provided as bonus proficiencies per the house rules thread.
12) Bonus Armor Prof additions:
Smart, Charismatic - Light
Fast, Strong, Devoted - Light, Medium
Tough - Light, Medium and Heavy

there are never enough feat slots available! Gah!

I hadnt realized the burst fire roll in, thanks!
Otherwise, looks good.

If he gets to play, I hope he helps the group well. I sort of envision him as a demon specialist.

Arch would there need to be a seperate knowledge skill to know anything and everything he might need to know about demons? would the knowledge arcane cover that? or something else?

[Archaelos]

Fast Hero 3, Tracer 3, Knight of the Accord 3

This build provides 7 feats: 2 starter, 3 class advancement, 2 bonus feats. This doesn't match up with the 10 feats you have listed here:

Feats: MOS Rifleman (Survival, Stealth (+1), Perception class skills,) Teamwork (JTFPR), Track, Precise Shot, Tactical Operations Armor Proficiency, Light/medium Armor Proficiency (bonus fast hero,) Advanced Firearms Proficiency, Anointed of the Accord, Heavy Combat Armor Proficiency

1st -MOS: Rifleman
1st - Teamwork
(B) - Light Armor Prof.
3rd - Track
(B) - Medium Armor Prof.
6th - Precise Shot
9th - Advanced Firearms Proficiency

I can't account for: Tactical Operations Armor, Anointed of the Accord, or Heavy Combat Armor Prof.

[Origen]

i lumped them together because i was a lazy typer, they are both provided as bonus proficiencies per the house rules thread.

Ah. No, that's a misunderstanding. You can take them as Bonus feats for those classes. You don't get them automatically. The possible bonus feats for most basic classes is impoverished. Arch expanded the list of feats you can choose from. You don't get them automatically.

I hadnt realized the burst fire roll in, thanks!

No problemo.

[hidufel]

This build provides 7 feats: 2 starter, 3 class advancement, 2 bonus feats. This doesn't match up with the 10 feats you have listed here:



1st -MOS: Rifleman
1st - Teamwork
(B) - Light Armor Prof.
3rd - Track
(B) - Medium Armor Prof.
6th - Precise Shot
9th - Advanced Firearms Proficiency

I can't account for: Tactical Operations Armor, Anointed of the Accord, or Heavy Combat Armor Prof.

Ah. No, that's a misunderstanding. You can take them as Bonus feats for those classes. You don't get them automatically. The possible bonus feats for most basic classes is impoverished. Arch expanded the list of feats you can choose from. You don't get them automatically.



No problemo.
ahhh... ok then i need to rethink several feat choices. i was under the impression that the light and medium profs were bonus proficiencies.

[Archaelos]

Arch would there need to be a seperate knowledge skill to know anything and everything he might need to know about demons? would the knowledge arcane cover that? or something else?

Knowledge (Theology and Philosophy), Decipher Script, and Spellcraft are all useful when dealing with demons and demonic texts.

[hidufel]

Fast Hero 3, Tracer 3, Knight of the Accord 3


Str: 9
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 10

Saves:
Fort: 1+2+3+2=8
Ref: 2+3+3+3=11
Will: 1+1+3+2=7

Hit Points: 8+8d8(40)+18=66
Action Points: 18 (4th lvl)+ 43 (5-9th)= 61
Defense: 10+4(FH)+2(Tracer)+2(KoA)+3(dex)+3(agamemnon armor)+2(analytical combat)=26
Occupation: Investigative; Permanent class skills – Sense Motive, Investigate, feat - Personal Firearms Proficiency.

Feats: MOS Rifleman (Survival, Stealth (+1), Perception class skills,) Teamwork (JTFPR), Track, Precise Shot, Light Armor Proficiency, JX-series weapon Prof (free virtual,) Anointed of the Accord, Analytical combat, Archaic Weapons Proficiency (Knight of the Accord)

Skill Ranks (without stat adjustments): Gather Information 10 (cha), Investigate 10 (Int), Knowledge Arcane 12 (int), Knowledge Streetwise 10 (Int), Knowledge Tactics 5 (Int), Perception 12 (wis), Sense Motive 12 (wis), Stealth 12 ((wis) +1), Survival 12 (wis), Tumble 12 (dex), Read / Speak Language English, French, Iroquis.

Skill Ranks (with stat adjustments and misc): Gather Information 10 (cha), Investigate 12 (Int), Knowledge Arcane 14 (int), Knowledge Streetwise 12 (Int), Knowledge Tactics 7 (Int), Perception 14 (wis), Sense Motive 14 (wis), Stealth 15 ((wis) +1), Survival 14 (wis), Tumble 15 (dex), Read / Speak Language English, French, Iroquis.

Fast hero Talents: Evasion, Opportunist
Tracer Talents: Target Species (Demon), Urban Tracking, Swift Strike +1d6
Knight of the Accords Talents: Demon Hunter, Archaic Weapons Proficiency, Slayer



BAB +8/+3: Melee +7/+2, Ranged +11/+6 (+13 with JX-25 Assault Rifle, +15 with teamwork)

[Archaelos]

Analytical combat

What is this feat and what source is it from?

[hidufel]

Knowledge (Theology and Philosophy), Decipher Script, and Spellcraft are all useful when dealing with demons and demonic texts.

are those skills a demon hunter would need?

say he just wants to know about the demon, know its abilities and how to hurt it, would there be a knowledge for that? three skills to spread points over is a lot, and none of those are on the tracer, fast or KoA skill lists, (except the knowledge philosphy/theology)

[Chimaera]

Stealth runs off of Dex, IIRC, not Wis. Also, while Analytical Combat is cool, given that you're aiming for the whole armoured thing, I might consider using the slot to deepen that particular tree. Precise Shot, also, I might consider feeding to that tree -- +1 to hit within 30' is cool, but I don't see that as important as your armour.

[hidufel]

Stealth runs off of Dex, IIRC, not Wis. Also, while Analytical Combat is cool, given that you're aiming for the whole armoured thing, I might consider using the slot to deepen that particular tree. Precise Shot, also, I might consider feeding to that tree -- +1 to hit within 30' is cool, but I don't see that as important as your armour.

anyalytical combat provides me with a bonus of +2 to defense, and for the same cost of a feat, depening the armor pool will only give me a gain of +1...

also precise shot is not +1 to hit within 30' it removes the -4 i get when i say, use the opportunist feature to nail that demon with my jx25 just after nikko hit it in melee.

[hidufel]

Stealth runs off of Dex, IIRC, not Wis.

cool, i'll make the change... thats another +1 to stealth then!

[Origen]

Precise Shot does, however, require Point Blank Shot as a prereq.

[hidufel]

Precise Shot does, however, require Point Blank Shot as a prereq.

noooooo i thought it was the other way around!! gah!

[hidufel]

What is this feat and what source is it from?

from blood and fists -master edition. sorry, thought it was an approved source.

here is the text.
Analytical Combat
You study your opponent, watching for any patterns in attack or defense and predicting when and where he will next strike.
Prerequisite: Int 13+, Knowledge (tactics) 5 ranks
Effect: You gain a Competence bonus to your defense equal to your Intelligence modifier. Note that competence bonuses, like most bonuses, do not stack so this feat does not stack with similar feats, such as Banter and Poise.

[hidufel]

Well need to make a change, mostly because i fail at reading feat prereqs...

Fast Hero 3, Tracer 3, Knight of the Accord 3


Str: 9
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 10

Saves:
Fort: 1+2+3+2=8
Ref: 2+3+3+3=11
Will: 1+1+3+2=7

Hit Points: 8+8d8(40)+18=66
Action Points: 18 (4th lvl)+ 43 (5-9th)= 61
Defense: 10+4(FH)+2(Tracer)+2(KoA)+3(dex)+3(agamemnon armor)=24
Occupation: Investigative; Permanent class skills – Sense Motive, Investigate, feat - Personal Firearms Proficiency.

Feats: MOS Rifleman (Survival, Stealth (+1), Perception class skills,) Teamwork (JTFPR), Track, Point Blank Shot, Light Armor Proficiency, JX-series weapon Prof (free virtual,) Anointed of the Accord, Precise Shot, Archaic Weapons Proficiency (Knight of the Accord)

Skill Ranks (without stat adjustments): Gather Information 10 (cha), Investigate 10 (Int), Knowledge Arcane 12 (int), Knowledge Streetwise 10 (Int), Knowledge Tactics 5 (Int), Perception 12 (wis), Sense Motive 12 (wis), Stealth 12 ((Dex) +1), Survival 12 (wis), Tumble 12 (dex), Read / Speak Language English, French, Iroquis.

Skill Ranks (with stat adjustments and misc): Gather Information 10 (cha), Investigate 12 (Int), Knowledge Arcane 14 (int), Knowledge Streetwise 12 (Int), Knowledge Tactics 7 (Int), Perception 14 (wis), Sense Motive 14 (wis), Stealth 16 ((Dex) +1), Survival 14 (wis), Tumble 15 (dex), Read / Speak Language English, French, Iroquis.

Fast hero Talents: Evasion, Opportunist
Tracer Talents: Target Species (Demon), Urban Tracking, Swift Strike +1d6
Knight of the Accords Talents: Demon Hunter, Archaic Weapons Proficiency, Slayer



BAB +8/+3: Melee +7/+2, Ranged +11/+6 (+13 with JX-25 Assault Rifle, +15 with teamwork)

[hidufel]

here is a question Arch... i should get this clarified before i think about going further for this current concept. Opportunist as a talent seems very usefull, but i just re-read the rules on attacks of opportunity, and the RAW state AOO or melee attacks only.

this game is firearm heavy, are you or would you consider allowing the opportunist to use his rifle to make that AOO, triggered by an apponent being struck in melee? for instance, nikko goes in and takes a swing and connects solidly with his apponent. using opportunist, i should be able to make an AOO, but im a ranged attacker, and technically cannot use the rifle to take that AOO... so opportunist would be near useless as a talent.

[Archaelos]

this game is firearm heavy, are you or would you consider allowing the opportunist to use his rifle to make that AOO, triggered by an apponent being struck in melee?

Not in general use, no.

There is a Class Ability found in some of the JTFPR PrCs that allows ranged AoOs, but without that or a similar class ability, AoOs and AoO-like attacks such as Opportunist must be made with melee weapons.

BTW, feats which add ability score bonuses to Defense (Analytical Combat, Poise, etc) are *not* approved. Sorry. I don't like possible synergies from the use of those Feats. (Smart Defense does something similar, if you want to pick up a Advanced Class or PrC that offers that Class Ability.)

[hidufel]

Not in general use, no.

There is a Class Ability found in some of the JTFPR PrCs that allows ranged AoOs, but without that or a similar class ability, AoOs and AoO-like attacks such as Opportunist must be made with melee weapons.
Och i was afraid of that. this pretty much shoots down the opportunist idea.
BTW, feats which add ability score bonuses to Defense (Analytical Combat, Poise, etc) are *not* approved. Sorry. I don't like possible synergies from the use of those Feats. (Smart Defense does something similar, if you want to pick up a Advanced Class or PrC that offers that Class Ability.)
thats cool. i think in my mind ive already dumped it and taken the prereq feat for precise shot.

main reason i took fast hero was because of the opportunist. hmmm wonder if there might be some other options to accomplish a good demon hunter...

[hidufel]

I'm trying to find where it was said, but for members of the JTFPR/Knights/Etc., Knowledge - Arcane is a permanent class skill for all of us.

If you have problems with initial feat selection, skills, etc. it is also helpful to work up a proposal for Arch. He is amenable to story-based builds that make sense.

Arch is this ok? knowledge arcane as a class skill for someone who's part of the JtFPR?

I'm working on a new build, strong 5 KOA 4, like to know if i have to get that to class or cross class skill ranks.

[Archaelos]

Arch is this ok? knowledge arcane as a class skill for someone who's part of the JtFPR?


Yes. Knowledge (Arcane) is a class skill for everyone in this campaign.

[hidufel]

thanks, thats good to know!

(and Knowing is half the battle!)

lol