comparative supers RPG design

[silverwhisper]

is there any single common theme/element of the mainstream supers genre that you feel has never really been addressed well in any existing ruleset?

i have one, myself: the change in creative teams of a comic book.

[Imaginos]

You can simulate that by keeping the same characters and all, but rotating GM and player positions. Trust me, that'll most likely feel like a change in creative teams.

I don't think I've ever seen a game that includes that in the game design though.

[silverwhisper]

eric, i concur that's a way to achieve that, but like you, i don't think i've ever seen that in the ruleset.

so nothing in your view's been overlooked by all games?

[Imaginos]

Oops. Forgot that part of your post.

I'd say one thing mainstream games don't address is that most characters in comics are static. In RPGs, we believe they should improve (gain XP and more powers), but in comics, they don't do that unless there is something that triggers it.

Another thing mainstream games want to do that doesn't really follow comics, is they want to craft the 'magic' part of the setting around real world myth and belief systems. Comics don't worry about that (that I can recall). They just have a realm of magic and whatnot.

So I guess my view is that mainstream games move further away from emulating comics by adding, not by leaving out.

I say this with the caveat that I'm considering mainstream games to be in or out of print and be from a major publisher (not an indie or Lulu). Golden Heroes, for example, does a great job of covering the 'patrol' portion of a hero's life. Another neat feature is combat is organized into comic book frames. I consider Golden Heroes to be a mainstream game.

[silverwhisper]

i'll confess i'm unfamiliar with golden heroes: ?

good points re: comic book panels. i hadn't considered that a limitation, in that there's ways to do splash pages (any game mechanic allowing you to modify die results), but perhaps that's just me?

your point re: magic however is very well-taken, i think. i suspect that's a function of the fact that at least the marvel & DC approaches are as wide-open as possible to afford writers maximum freedom, and i think everyone else is keying off of that approach, myself, but it's absolutely a genre-wide failing, IMHO.

[Imaginos]

i'll confess i'm unfamiliar with golden heroes: ?

good points re: comic book panels. i hadn't considered that a limitation, in that there's ways to do splash pages (any game mechanic allowing you to modify die results), but perhaps that's just me?

your point re: magic however is very well-taken, i think. i suspect that's a function of the fact that at least the marvel & DC approaches are as wide-open as possible to afford writers maximum freedom, and i think everyone else is keying off of that approach, myself, but it's absolutely a genre-wide failing, IMHO.

Golden Heroes was published by Games Workshop back when they made RPGs and board games (Talisman board game, not talisman mini game). The auther, Simon Burley, has a Yahoo group where he is republishing it under Squadron UK. Worth taking a look at if you like supers games. Random character creation, but you had to justify the powers as fitting within the character concept, or they could be lost. That was a nifty way of ensuring concept.

I agree regarding the magic. Well, that plus it seems to be the kool thing to do to try to mirror real world spirituality in the supers games. I don't mind it in other modern setting games that try to emulate the real world with a little bit of oomph added. But for supers, come on, we've already left the real world in most games. Yes, you could run a pseudo realistic modern supers game, in which case belief systems are fine. But get them out of my 4 color.

[SD Anderson]

eric, i concur that's a way to achieve that, but like you, i don't think i've ever seen that in the ruleset.

so nothing in your view's been overlooked by all games?


There was a brief SHRPG called Nice Guys Finish Last, where the gimmick was each PC had his own Comic Book which the players had to keep in publication.

That is to say: Rule mechanics for chaning creative team were in print! ;)

[Imaginos]

There was a brief SHRPG called Nice Guys Finish Last, where the gimmick was each PC had his own Comic Book which the players had to keep in publication.

That is to say: Rule mechanics for chaning creative team were in print! ;)

But not in a mainstream game. Wasn't that the game that was spread over 2 issues of Space Gamer magazine (or some other mag)?

[bishoplogan]

You can simulate that buy keeping the same characters and all, but rotating GM and player positions. Trust me, that'll most likely feel like a change in creative teams.

I don't think I've ever seen a game that includes that in the game design though.

oh yeah,thats so true.
I had a V&V character I played for ten years.
Different GM's will give you that different creative team feel.
But also you yourself make that change as the character grows.

[Justice]

ed

The number one thing I have not seen handled well in a Supers except POSSIBLY in Champions is the need to keep a Secret ID or either 1) get yourself mauled 24/7 or 2) never have any rest.

In other words, we tend to play the heroes ONLY when "on duty" - 'cause that's when the story gets exciting. But the best superheroes have a good struggle between their deadly dull lives and their heroic lives (Supes and Spidey for example).

I just wish there was something in a rulesset that made the non-super version of the PC vital to their sanity, health or position in life. DC Heroes made those little things sub-plots and gave some bonuses for accomplishing them but I think they ought to be stronger somehow.

Down time is definitely needed. And role-playing THAT could be fun with the right GM.

[baldingfatman]

I just wish there was something in a rulesset that made the non-super version of the PC vital to their sanity, health or position in life. DC Heroes made those little things sub-plots and gave some bonuses for accomplishing them but I think they ought to be stronger somehow.
Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP) has specific guidelines for awarding Karma based upon meeting one's non-super obligations, and penalties when you fail to do so (couldn't make it to Aunt May's birthday party because you were battling Doc Ock? Karma loss!).

[SD Anderson]

Oops. Forgot that part of your post.

I'd say one thing mainstream games don't address is that most characters in comics are static. In RPGs, we believe they should improve (gain XP and more powers), but in comics, they don't do that unless there is something that triggers it.

Another thing mainstream games want to do that doesn't really follow comics, is they want to craft the 'magic' part of the setting around real world myth and belief systems. Comics don't worry about that (that I can recall). They just have a realm of magic and whatnot.

So I guess my view is that mainstream games move further away from emulating comics by adding, not by leaving out.

I say this with the caveat that I'm considering mainstream games to be in or out of print and be from a major publisher (not an indie or Lulu). Golden Heroes, for example, does a great job of covering the 'patrol' portion of a hero's life. Another neat feature is combat is organized into comic book frames. I consider Golden Heroes to be a mainstream game.

Some games can do the broadness of comics magic but not the depth. Whether a Champions Cosmic Power Pool, GURPS 4th using Modular Abilities or Umana with Ritual Magic, or the various means that MEGS and Faserip did guys like Dr. Fate and Dr. Strange you had pretty much a do anything ability which had limits in raw power. The Spectre could pick up a galaxy and hit Dis over the head with it. No character you made on any playable amount of chargen resource ever would.

Most 'omnipowers' tend to be rather weak in fact.

V&V's "Mutant power" potentially could do it, IF a GM would permit a PC true Godhood. Since few if any would or will however, it's a moot point.

[Chimaera]

I agree with your point about the static nature of comic-book superheroes, Eric (in fact, I've brought it up myself before). I don't know that we ever really used experience and advancement in our V&V games... We just made characters and played'em.

[BlueNinja]

The number one thing I have not seen handled well in a Supers except POSSIBLY in Champions is the need to keep a Secret ID or either 1) get yourself mauled 24/7 or 2) never have any rest.

In other words, we tend to play the heroes ONLY when "on duty" - 'cause that's when the story gets exciting. But the best superheroes have a good struggle between their deadly dull lives and their heroic lives (Supes and Spidey for example).

I just wish there was something in a rulesset that made the non-super version of the PC vital to their sanity, health or position in life. DC Heroes made those little things sub-plots and gave some bonuses for accomplishing them but I think they ought to be stronger somehow.

Down time is definitely needed. And role-playing THAT could be fun with the right GM. Aberrant put a small amount of emphasis on this, both the "getting away from your powers" (ie Dormancy) and that unless you're trying to run a 4-color world, there is no niche for a super-villain (because capitalism provides so many better options for anyone with powers). It's not, however, a major point in the game, and it is IMO often ignored by the GM. Only in Hitcher's (aborted) game have I seen an emphasis on needing to keep either a separate identity or stay out of the public eye completely when not using your powers.

[Chimaera]

Thus proving that capitalism is evil?

*runs back to GE&R*

[SD Anderson]

Part of advancement meant improving your powers and skills.

In point based games this tended to be incremental but continuous. Level based was all of a sudden: Whant!!! all this happens to you.

I will note a Champions game where a player built the Dexter/Ace character from the video game, and pretty quickly bought off Kimmie as a DNPC etc. Very much not the character he started with within a year's time.

[Hitcher]

Aberrant put a small amount of emphasis on this, both the "getting away from your powers" (ie Dormancy) and that unless you're trying to run a 4-color world, there is no niche for a super-villain (because capitalism provides so many better options for anyone with powers). It's not, however, a major point in the game, and it is IMO often ignored by the GM. Only in Hitcher's (aborted) game have I seen an emphasis on needing to keep either a separate identity or stay out of the public eye completely when not using your powers.
Most games celebrate you having super powers. Mine didn't.

[BlueNinja]

Thus proving that capitalism is evil?

*runs back to GE&R* Heh, depends. But in a world where super-powers are known and public ... take a guy who can hack computers mentally. He could break into Wall Street and rig the system for a few million ... or he could get hired by Microsoft and remove a bunch of bugs for a percentage of the profits ... or he could design the next Halo or computer animated blockbuster movie. IMO it was merely to emphasize that there are better uses to put your powers to than trying to <Brain> take over the world, Pinky! </Brain> It was also equally responsible for the escalation of warfare in Africa and South America by hiring novas to take out armies and each other, and the acquisition of Taint by novas who never took the opportunity for a vacation to cool down.

:shrug: It's a mixed bag, certainly, but it is IMO more 'real world' which is part of my attraction to the system.

[SD Anderson]

And games scale. Comics do whatever is convenient at that moment.

How fast is Superman? How much can the Thing Lift? Everytime a comic puts a number on those things it tends to suffer.

RPGs live on putting numbers on things.

In a Golden Age setting, you can populate the solar system with races each planet conveneiently hjman habitable.

You can't do that in more modern settings. Too much about the universe is common knowledge. Venus has no swamps, and is super heated, pressurized corrosive atmospheric death to anyone landing there. Mars no canals, a lot of CO2 and not a lot of things for Super heroes to do there. The other planets are less hospitable.

So, you have to put your aliens in other systems, and as each passing year lets our radio signals go out unanswered, realistic alien placement puts them further away.

Convenient travel to distant stars is essentially teleportation on a Solar System scale. While teleportation certainly works, you lack the thrill of encountering anyting on the way and you can't dogfight villains in space.

FTL Fight gets headachey too since it tends to be linear scale in advancement since normal movement in game is linear scale.

10 times the speed needed to cross the milk way in an hour won't get you to the Andromeda Galaxy any time soon. Nor will 100 times. It's THAT far from us. So Flight speed boost power after Flight speed boost gets you nothing but the ability to travel real far in the big empty.

Some sort of scalar based FTL flight might work here after Galactic you go to the speed needed to reach nearby Galaxies and subsequent bumps go up whatever distance is needed to get to the next level. X times speed per boost, an exponential increase that stops at some point past the radius of the universe (If the Universe is 20 billion years old, it's 40 billion light years across). So the ability to mathematically go faster than 40 billion light years in one turn caps your FTL speed.

[AnotherSKip]

i don't think these are insurmountable.

sure some rubber science may be necessary, but in the end that IS what most RPG's are about.

for example teleporing across the universe, well perhaps there is a smalll chance of dimensional dsruption or like a computer getting switched to another location where you have to solve the probem then get back on track (or like wormhole jumping you are just stuck there until the next time opens anyway). so I don't think that there aren't good reasons to have random encounters along the way, it just means you have to have the rubber science bend your way.

[baldingfatman]

In a Golden Age setting, you can populate the solar system with races each planet conveneiently hjman habitable.

You can't do that in more modern settings. Too much about the universe is common knowledge. Venus has no swamps, and is super heated, pressurized corrosive atmospheric death to anyone landing there. Mars no canals, a lot of CO2 and not a lot of things for Super heroes to do there. The other planets are less hospitable.
That assumes everything we know to be true in the real world is true is equally true in your gaming universe. That doesn't have to be the case. Super-heroic RPGs are all about fudged science, so why can't you apply that to planets is our solar system?

Perhaps what we think we know is incorrect? Or maybe the truth is being suppressed by either the governments of Earth or by alien forces? Maybe we do have the right of it when it comes to the atmospheres, but maybe we have races capable of surviving there anyway, either through superhuman ability or advanced alien tech?

[SD Anderson]

Which in turn means you and your players are comfortable in a setting that, the existence of super powers and cities and even nations that don't exist aside, is notably NOT the world we live on.

This is something of a turn off to me. I define the default Silver Age era space travel as 6:30 am wake up. 9:00 am. Go to the Central Galactic Library and look up facts about the aliens currently raiding pharmecutical factories on Earth. 11:45 am Lunch with book editors in Secret Identity at Harzens. Take care of other business my Secret ID has to take care of. 2:00 pm Resume normal patrol.

The V&V adventure "From the Deeps of Space" set up the specifics for FTL travel for the game. You can't do the default above. Traveling to the nearest stars takes weeks. And you face a random encounter table that's checked over increments so small you'd never survive long enough to get to the center of the galaxy anyway.

If your game takes place in the modern world, you've pretty much conceded you've just acknowledged what the modern world knows about the Universe.

[baldingfatman]

Which in turn means you and your players are comfortable in a setting that, the existence of super powers and cities and even nations that don't exist aside, is notably NOT the world we live on.

This is something of a turn off to me.
That's a pretty big aside.

So it's still "the world we live on" despite the presence of beings with abilities that defy the very laws of physics and fictional locales like Astro City, Latveria, Monster Island, etc. (and presumably you're also allowing for other Silver Age tropes like giant monsters, indestructible alloys, hyper-tech, etc.), but it's no longer credibly our world if we add a race of aliens on Venus who use their abilities, in cooperation with various world governments, to conceal their existence from the general public?

I don't quite understand the difference.

[SD Anderson]

That's a pretty big aside.

So it's still "the world we live on" despite the presence of beings with abilities that defy the very laws of physics and fictional locales like Astro City, Latveria, Monster Island, etc. (and presumably you're also allowing for other Silver Age tropes like giant monsters, indestructible alloys, hyper-tech, etc.), but it's no longer credibly our world if we add a race of aliens on Venus who use their abilities, in cooperation with various world governments, to conceal their existence from the general public?

I don't quite understand the difference.

Pretty much. You still had underground and undersea civilizations etc. for a bit longer. But when cameras started landing on Venus, Mars and the Moon, the ability to sell the concept of Martians dropped. J'onn had to be retconned to a race that existed deep in the past. I'm not sure you could sell an undersea city that's thousands of years old and occupied today.

Similarly, the Golden Age stopped using Africa as a repository for hidden civilzations. Planes pretty much eliminated them. Tibet gets a pass as a place of mysticism mostly because China has kept the world pretty excluded from it for the last half a century.

[bishoplogan]

i dont know if this fits here but how about backgrounds ie. life exp/charactor past.
like life paths from cyberpunk 2020.
to represent your past.
not all heroes start out like spiderman in high school.
look at Wolverine,extreme example but still an example.

[SD Anderson]

i dont know if this fits here but how about backgrounds ie. life exp/charactor past.
like life paths from cyberpunk 2020.
to represent your past.
not all heroes start out like spiderman in high school.
look at Wolverine,extreme example but still an example.

This brings up an interesting point: How many (or few) ORIGINAL origins there are for Supers.

You got your aliens, mutants, time travelers, Gods/Avatars of the Gods, Magicians, altered humans, demonic, radiation exposures and psychics.

How many super characters come to mind who DON'T have an origin stemming from at least one of the above?

[AnotherSKip]

ya left out inventors and skillmasters. (bootstrap legion)

I also think that there are power sources and then there are motivational stories.


In addition how about this origin: Character gets exposed to massive amounts of transforming magic, leaves him with altered body.

is that altered humans, radiation exposure?

he doesn't cast spells so he isn't magician.

and are we assuming that deamons and Gods are really all that different? though I don't want to lump everyhing under supernatural.....

[bishoplogan]

dont forget the vengful avenger,loved one was murdered. now they're a hero.

where does this fit: while in mothers womb fetus injected with magic potion created by demon magic :sawink2:

[SD Anderson]

ya left out inventors and skillmasters. (bootstrap legion)

I also think that there are power sources and then there are motivational stories.


In addition how about this origin: Character gets exposed to massive amounts of transforming magic, leaves him with altered body.

is that altered humans, radiation exposure?

he doesn't cast spells so he isn't magician.

and are we assuming that deamons and Gods are really all that different? though I don't want to lump everyhing under supernatural.....

Altered Human.

Some people take the distinction between divine and infernal very seriously. Lumping say Ghost Rider and Thor into the same category might ah, perturb theeir delicate sensabilities. ;)

Casting spells and magical are not syntonous terms.

[SD Anderson]

dont forget the vengful avenger,loved one was murdered. now they're a hero.

where does this fit: while in mothers womb fetus injected with magic potion created by demon magic :sawink2:


Magical, of course. Magical (this source) and Magical (this other source) are both Magical.

[bishoplogan]

Magical, of course. Magical (this source) and Magical (this other source) are both Magical.
not altered human?

[SD Anderson]

not altered human?

Nope. An altered human would not be affected by an area of anti-magic. It's magical and would be subject to that restriction.

[bishoplogan]

Nope. An altered human would not be affected by an area of anti-magic. It's magical and would be subject to that restriction.
damn your right.
the group of peoples powers were considered magical along with the individual
thanks for reminding me:thumbup: