White Wolf

[carmachu]

In another discussion elsewhere, this is what was said:

White Wolf is on life support. Expect the plug to be pulled.


What happened to white wolf to put it in that state?

[Mouser]

Vampire: The Masquerade

Paperboy: The Delivery

7-11: The Slurpie Machine

etc.

etc.

etc.

ad infinitum

[Detritus]

There was also the game-world reboot in which V:tM became Vampire: The Requiem, and I think the other games had similar facelifts. The new stuff just must not be selling as well, would be my guess.

[LagomorphPrime]

From what little I saw of all the reboot and newer editions, I really didn't like the changes. I've heard that most WW players felt the same way.

[BattleNymph]

Was it worse or better before the face lift?

[Baelfyre]

Just a matter of opinion, but...

They wrote themselves into a corner with their original books... not necessarily in that nothing could be done to write their way out but that they had made their world so internally inconsistent that it was collapsing under it's own weight.

I've heard good and bad about their new stuff but haven't played it. They also lost a major lawsuit over the Underworld movies if I recall correctly.

[Detritus]

Was it worse or better before the face lift?
I don't have enough info to make that comparison. I bought V:tR when it came out, but didn't go through it very carefully, and haven't played it at all. Maybe that's part of the answer right there...

[carmachu]

From what I gather BN, worse....

[LagomorphPrime]

The overall structure of the WoD was pretty consistant. Each supernatural race had it's own view of the world, names for things, explanations for things, and so on, but when you looked at it all they were really all addressing the same environment and powers at work. What I think really caused problems was the number of exceptions they started putting in there. The nature of their world was very structured, and that meant there was no real room for additions (ie splatbooks). So as a company they had to start making up fringe exceptions to the paradigm in order to make and sell new material. WotC can just invent a few more feats, races, PrC's, even new campaign settings, and whammo, they have new books to put on the shelves that we (being the suckers we are) will buy. But the Word of Darkness was carved from ancient gothic cathedral stone, so once they tried spitting out a few crappie exceptions (Hunter, Zombies, etc) they realized the only way to really kick it up and increase sales is to sweep the whole universe with something knew (like a mega crossover in comic books) and resell everything fresh. Only the fans didn't like it, so they stopped printing the stuff that people were buying little of anymore ('cuz they all had their copies already) and started printing stuff nobody wanted. Good recipe for failure, I believe.

$0.02

[BattleNymph]

Kind of the fixing it when it ain't broke school of business eh?

[LagomorphPrime]

It was broke, from a business standpoint. But not from the consumer end. We had the books, were happy, and all was good.

On a side note, I haven't played V:tM in years, but I used to enjoy it. I also liked Mage and Werewolf. Never really got into Changeling or Wraith.

[carmachu]

Wraith could be alot of fun....

[BattleNymph]

I did the larp of VtM and the Werewolf one for a little while. They were fun.

[Battledragon]

The problem with the new edition books (in my humble opinion) is that they took game worlds that were, at the best of times, depressing. Then they made them worse.

[JasonStarfire]

I just picked up the new WoD core books at a local used book store. I like the overall changes to the system, but I haven't gotten through the actual Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage books yet, so I can't comment. I wouldn't be surprised if their choice of foil-ish book covers and such have something to do with their percieved lack of profits.

I think a lot of the negative sentiment, though, stems from WW players not wanting to accept change. Hardcore WW players* definitely tend to share a lot of similar traits. One of them that seems common is how deeply immersed in the game they get- sometimes to a point where it's scary. I've seen more drama and bullshit stem from things happening to people's LARP characters than any other game, ever (and I've played a lot of RPGs).

I wish White-Wolf the best. I like them as a company, and I usually like their products. The only thing I don't like about them is some of their fanbase.

Then again, this industry is in a deep recession, from all accounts, and will probably bounce back just as it has several times before. Hopefully WW can cut back enough to ride out the storm, but maybe not. Rumors are flying around about nearly every game publisher these days. A few months ago, people were saying that WoTC was going to fold. Excuse me if I don't believe that. :)



* Not all of them, obviously, but many of them.

[dirkgentry2006]

Hmmmmm....I don't know if I'd say "life support".

They haven't been able to capture lightning in a bottle like they did with Vampire in the 90s.

Their sales have been sliding over time (but most RPG companies have seen this.)

Their new editions didn't meet with resounding acclaim - and some will argue that they've alienated their core audience (I disagree - but I've heard the argument made.)

HOWEVER - they just merged with CCP - the Iceland-based MMO creator behind Eve Online (a space sim MMO that could be called a sleeper success). They've announced plans to develop a World of Darkness MMO.

Here (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=11670) is a story about the "merger" - it looked like more of an aquisition than a true merger (basically CCP has a successful MMO and lots of money, White Wolf is rumored to be cash poor)

I don't think being acquired (or merged or whatever) by a successful software studio who wants to adapt your game-world into an MMO can truly be called "being on life support". It's probably the best thing that could happen to a small to medium sized RPG company.

On the downside, White Wolf has never had a huge in-house writing staff. I would speculate this means less active day-to-day attention being paid to supporting print products while they work on game scripting and development.

Both the profit margin and income stream for an MMO (even just a moderately successful one like Eve Online) are much higher than for pen-and-paper RPGs. It's like comparing having a paper route to having a successful crack-dealing business.

This could be the golden goose that keeps White Wolf solvent and keeps their books in print for years to come. If they're smart, they'll use the print products to drive marketshare to the MMO with sample CDs in new books and other cross-promotions.

FWIW - this might be the start of a sort of mini trend- Pinnacle (the guys behind Deadlands) are doing a Deadland MMORPG and Sony Online Entertainment (the guys behind Star Wars Galaxies, Everquest etc) are picking up the checks for development. Here (http://mmreviews.com/index.php?/categories/6-Coming-Soon)is a story about that.

I would predict more of these - especially if these two are successful. Be nice to see RIFTS get the online treatment - that might be the only way I could consider playing that game again:)

[Lost Soul]

What happened to white wolf to put it in that state?

Duh. They're goths. They WANT to be dead. :)

[BlueNinja]

Possibly another problem is that WW has cancelled their few non-gothic game lines. The whole Aeon/Trinity line was popular, the Adventure! part of it won awards for best new RPG, and they cancelled it anyway.

[Starhawk]

Um, Exalted just printed a 2nd edition not terribly long ago.

[Baelfyre]

I consider Adventure! to be the best overall book I own.